The eagles or the story of the lost eagles : What became of them?

[Diocletianus]

Does the eagles disapear during the third century or do they were discarded by later christians emperors?

The fact is that the title aqulifer or the eagle bearer disapear during the third century ( Adrian Goldsworthy). But is this really true?
We have aqulifer in SAI but JH were did you found the sources to put an eagle during the reign of Julian because I don't find any.

I think that they were abandonned during the reign of Gratian or Valentinian....But we have no evidence for them during the third century. I didn't found anything about it in my college library and I must ask the sages here to hear my plea.

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

Ammianus refers to eagles in his history. The title or grade of aquilifier remains until at least the reign of Mauricius as evinced in the Strategikon although it is not known exactly what the bearer of the title now did to justify the grade/rank. It didn't disappear in the third century - pace Goldsworthy.

It is difficult to recontruct exactly how they were 'retired' from the legions, as it were, but it is important to remember that the aquila remained the legion standard and that many of the older legions broke up into smaller vexillations which remained seperated and possibly were later re-constituted into smaller legions Therefore the original eagle standard remained only with the 'headquarters' element. One can imagine that the newer legions formed later under Constantine and his successors incorporated the labarum standards of Christ et al rather than resurrecting the eagle with the draco and the vexillum being the smaller unit standards.

[Emperor Caesar]

hmmm I like the eagle as a standard

[Pompeius Magnus]

SBH has already said everything on the subject. I would like to add a few quotes.
As I've written several times it is pure defamation that Vegetius is called to be unreliable - because he describes his Legion by taking several ancient sources. Actually - whenever he speaks about his own time - he chooses a clear language - and differs between "the ancients" and the situation of +/- 400AD.

Book II: The Organization of the Legion
VII. Nomina et gradus principiorum legionis.

Having shown the ancient establishment of the legion, we shall now explain the names of the principal soldiers or, to use the proper term, the officers, and their ranks according to the present rolls of the legions. [...]. The eagle-bearers and the image-bearers are those who carry (now!) the eagles and images of the Emperors.

Aquiliferi, qui aquilam portant. Imaginarii vel imaginiferi, qui imperatoris imagines ferunt.

Strategikon (written between 580 and 620AD)
Book 12
chapter 17

Nobody should march out in front of the battle line except the merarchs (Merous archonta), mounted, each accompanied by two heralds (Mandatoron), two drill masters (Kampidouktoron), one strator (Stratoros), one spatharios (Spathariou), and the eagle bearers (τοὺς ὸρνιθόβορας).

many times wrong translated as "2" eagle bearers. Actually the number is not defined. As correctly said by SBH, it is debatable if it was just an office or rank for "something" - or if they really carried the eagle.
Especially in relation to the Infantry the Strategikon is written spongy.
But one must apologize this book also. In one section is clearly indicated that the infantry was at the time of the creation of the Strategikon very colorful and mixed - and not follwing an unique system. Therefore it is indeed possible that some very old core units had such an eagle. But it's military usage was for sure not given anymore - since the Banner (Bandon or Semeion) has replaced the tactical orientation during the battle.

The fact is that the title aqulifer or the eagle bearer disapear during the third century ( Adrian Goldsworthy).

can you tell where you have read this information? At the moment I cannot believe that Goldsworthy makes such a mistake.

[Diocletianus]

Thank for theses answer guys ! Never had the chance of reading Amianus or the Strategikon for it is almost impossible in my town to grab a single english book.... Anyway thanks again for enligthing me.

[Pompeius Magnus]

Please don't forget to tell us where you found the sentence in Goldsworth's book that the eagles were gone during the 3rd century.

[Valentinian Victor]

Thank for theses answer guys ! Never had the chance of reading Amianus or the Strategikon for it is almost impossible in my town to grab a single english book.... Anyway thanks again for enligthing me.

Ammianus and the Strategikon are both on the internet for free, just do a google search.

[Pompeius Magnus]

Do you have a link regarding the Strategikon? I never heard that it's free available on the internet. I was happy to get one of the old hardcover versions from the Austrian academy of science.

[Diocletianus]

Please don't forget to tell us where you found the sentence in Goldsworth's book that the eagles were gone during the 3rd century.

Adrian Goldsworthy book Les guerres romaines is an analysis of the roman way of war battle and organisation.They don't talk much of the ranks. But when I looked in the glossary, I saw that aquilifer was from 1st century Ad to IIIrd AD. So I was like '' ???? ''. My edition is in french but it very possible that it is a translation of a english one.

[Renatus]

This is probably Roman Warfare (Cassell's History of Warfare), London, 2000. The Glossary reads:

aquilifer: The standard-bearer who carried the legion's standard (aquila), a silver, later gold, statuette of an eagle (first century to third century AD).

[Pompeius Magnus]

Thank you gents
In this case he is wrong.
As said, the eagle bearer is noted in the Strategikon when the Merarch performed the examination of the battle line.
He was the commander of round about 4000-5000 men - a number which is matching the former Legions. The Romano-byzantines were Purists and it's possible that they had certain symbols of the "Ancients" left - but the tactical usage was, as mentioned above, for sure not given anymore. It was just a sign, so to speak.
The eagle was not per se a symbol of paganism - since it is well known that it was used during official acts of the emperors (carried by kanditatoi - see liber de Ceremoniis; however it is not known if it was just a small eagle on top of a scepter or even a real eagle standard) and even beyond it became the official symbol of the dynasty of the Palaiologoi (since that time double-headed).

It would also be interesting to research what exactly happened to all those eagles after the Legions were gone in the WRE? Melted? :-(
If I remember correctly no eagle was found so far.

[Valentinian Victor]

Thank you gents
In this case he is wrong.
As said, the eagle bearer is noted in the Strategikon when the Merarch performed the examination of the battle line.
He was the commander of round about 4000-5000 men - a number which is matching the former Legions. The Romano-byzantines were Purists and it's possible that they had certain symbols of the "Ancients" left - but the tactical usage was, as mentioned above, for sure not given anymore. It was just a sign, so to speak.
The eagle was not per se a symbol of paganism - since it is well known that it was used during official acts of the emperors (carried by kanditatoi - see liber de Ceremoniis; however it is not known if it was just a small eagle on top of a scepter or even a real eagle standard) and even beyond it became the official symbol of the dynasty of the Palaiologoi (since that time double-headed).

It would also be interesting to research what exactly happened to all those eagles after the Legions were gone in the WRE? Melted? :-(
If I remember correctly no eagle was found so far.

I remember a story several years ago about a lectern in a church that was found to have a rather odd socket at its base. It bemused a number of people and no one could understand it. As it was an Eagle shaped lectern I always wondered if that was in fact the remains of an Eagle standard!

[Deutschland]

It is pretty certain that the Roman eagles surived in the East till the Arab Conquests, eventhough they didnt have any military function.

[Diocletianus]

Thank you gents
In this case he is wrong.
As said, the eagle bearer is noted in the Strategikon when the Merarch performed the examination of the battle line.
He was the commander of round about 4000-5000 men - a number which is matching the former Legions. The Romano-byzantines were Purists and it's possible that they had certain symbols of the "Ancients" left - but the tactical usage was, as mentioned above, for sure not given anymore. It was just a sign, so to speak.
The eagle was not per se a symbol of paganism - since it is well known that it was used during official acts of the emperors (carried by kanditatoi - see liber de Ceremoniis; however it is not known if it was just a small eagle on top of a scepter or even a real eagle standard) and even beyond it became the official symbol of the dynasty of the Palaiologoi (since that time double-headed).

It would also be interesting to research what exactly happened to all those eagles after the Legions were gone in the WRE? Melted? :-(
If I remember correctly no eagle was found so far.

We could draw a certain paralel with napoleonian eagles. We have very few eagles from this period. There only 2 eagles remaining I think. England have one from the Waterloo campaign and the other was found in the berezina by the advancing Wermacht in the summer of 1941. I don't know what happen after it's discovery.

Eagles may have been buried as a hoard or they may have been a loot for a barbarian chieftain. Let's hope we find one! But they have more probably been melted for coins or other luxury goods.

I remember a story several years ago about a lectern in a church that was found to have a rather odd socket at its base. It bemused a number of people and no one could understand it. As it was an Eagle shaped lectern I always wondered if that was in fact the remains of an Eagle standard!

I don't think wood can survive all thoses years as a lectern....But it is possible. Where you heard the story?

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

Deutschland, that is a very specific and bold claim. Can you tell me or point me to the sources of that, please?

[Renatus]

I remember a story several years ago about a lectern in a church that was found to have a rather odd socket at its base. It bemused a number of people and no one could understand it. As it was an Eagle shaped lectern I always wondered if that was in fact the remains of an Eagle standard!

I thought that you were going to tell the story of the tour guide showing a party around the church in Leighton Buzzard. He pointed out the unusual shape of the beak of the eagle forming the lectern and suggested that the bird was not an eagle but a buzzard. This, he said, accounted for the name of the town. The church sexton was amused by this, as the beak had been broken for many years and he had only that morning carved it to shape.

Somewhat off-topic, I'm afraid, but I thought that you might find it amusing.

[Valentinian Victor]

I thought that you were going to tell the story of the tour guide showing a party around the church in Leighton Buzzard. He pointed out the unusual shape of the beak of the eagle forming the lectern and suggested that the bird was not an eagle but a buzzard. This, he said, accounted for the name of the town. The church sexton was amused by this, as the beak had been broken for many years and he had only that morning carved it to shape.

Somewhat off-topic, I'm afraid, but I thought that you might find it amusing.

Very funny that one Renatus, I'll remember that tale for the future. The story I gave comes from memory and I wish I could find the article it was from, I know it was nothing to do with history, it was a news article about a church restoration.

[First Citizen Gallienus]

Is this an angel or is it just me? Would standards such as these have been carried?

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

It could be a symbol of 'Victory' - she was painted on a few of the shields and then became an 'angel' image also but I know of no evidence that She was carried aloft on a pole as a standard. If anyone does have evidence, I would love to read about it!

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Isn't that simply a nike/victoria?