Beta Release - FO 0.95!

[Caligula Caesar]

Hopefully I'll be able to create a reasonably balanced economy once I've added the missing buildings. It might take a while, though, as I'll have to create a spreadsheet to give myself an overview of it all.

Edit: Also, it just occurred to me how stupid it is to put in Uruk when Babylon isn't in, so Uruk is being swapped for Babylon

[Antiokhos Euergetes]

I would just mark Babylon as a symbol a wonder, Uruk/Orkhoi was a river trading port to the Red sea and minted coins, so as you say does have some some significance.

[Caligula Caesar]

Babylon was also quite important. Contrary to some people, it quite clearly didn't cease to be a city after the founding of Seleukeia. It is true that Strabo and Pliny allege that Seleukeia supplanted it to the point that it fell into ruins, but there are other references to it by classical historians which show it still existed e.g. Diodorus says the Parthians sacked it in 126 and Josephus has Jews fleeing from it in the mid 1st century BC. Additionally, there are also the Babylonian chronicles (the ones marked BCHP are from the Hellenistic period and after), which show considerable involvement from the kings (including repeated personal presence) and no sign of decline. No source except Pausanias alleges that there was a wholesale removal of Babylonians to Seleukeia (Pausanias says Seleukos moved the Babylonians but not the Chaldaeans, but obviously with him doing a geography of Greece, why should we trust him over others on Babylon?). One Babylonian chronicle (Antiochos I and the Temple of Sin Chronicle) says that Antiochos I moved Macedonians who had been settled in Babylon to Seleukeia, but obviously this wouldn't the Babylonians, and it is anyways clear that there were Greeks in Babylon in the 2nd century BC (see the Politai and Greek Community Chronicles). Of course, Strabo and Pliny do say it declined because of Seleukeia's proximity (and Appian has a story which shows he believes this happened), and Seleukeia definitely became the 'royal city' and so the main political and administrative centre, but Babylon's decline was a gradual affair (as Strabo at least recognises), and Babylon remained an important city until Parthian times at least.

In fact, I've written an essay on it. That's my main drift, though I forgot to mention the bit about the Macedonians being moved but somehow still got a good mark. But it is quite clear to me that Babylon continued to be important, and I simply cannot see that Uruk surpassed it.

[Antiokhos Euergetes]

Oh no my good man, was not trying to argue Babylon was in 'ruins' as you correctly surmised some authors. I would at least had the decency to give you a proper academic argument. No rather that it would of simply made a change. But upon reflection perhaps the other way round? A trade/port resource for Uruk can that be done with a PSF?
http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/hbtin
Hellenistic Babylonia tablets, images, etc

PS I purchased this book recently might interest you
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Seleucid-Arc...=IWXASHZBWFJFG

[Caligula Caesar]

Ah I was just jumping to conclusions to show off my knowledge Of course no serious Seleucid historian writing in the past 20-30 years believes that Babylon was ruined. Anyway, they were clearly both cities, but I'd prefer Babylon to Uruk because it was better known (and probably more important). I think it will need a special building in it to represent the temple at least.

That book looks like it would be interesting. I don't know if you can access it, but here's another quite interesting set of documents that have been collected (but this time Greek and Jewish).

[Antiokhos Euergetes]

Yes read those recently, John Ma's book Antiokhos III and Cities of Asia Minor is in !y opinion brilliant! If you have not already,and I suspect you have, read it now!

[Caligula Caesar]

I've read parts of it, I never found the time to read the rest. I didn't find it the easiest read, but it's well worth the effort.

[Antiokhos Euergetes]

I am assuming via your University or perhaps a membership to The Society for Promotion of Hellenic Studies (I recommend by the way) The Journal of Hellenic Studies? If so, look at Vol133/2013- 61 ' Rethinking The Hellenistic Gulf: New Inscriptions from Bahrain' Kosmin, P. Very interesting I will not say huge amounts now unless you cannot get access in which case I will summarise as best I can

[Caligula Caesar]

I've been doing quite a lot to the map, by the way. It's looking a lot more polished now (the mountains have now received their proper attention), the battle maps will be somewhat less hilly, and I've changed some settlements around after some review (both by myself and some others) persuaded me to change them. So Ilipa is now Cordoba, Eboracum has been moved to its correct place (not sure how it ended up where it is right now!), as has Gergovia, whilst Sagalassos has become Apameia Kelainai. I might post some pics at some point - as I said, it's looking a lot better now.

[Antiokhos Euergetes]

So what did you have in Syria? The Tetrapolis were they there? And the Levant? Having been writing an essay of sorts of Lesta, on the Fourth Syria War it has brought home the significance of both the Seleukidai and Ptolemaioi city building in this whole area as defence in depth

[Caligula Caesar]

In Syria (northern and southern) I have Antioch-Daphne, Apamea-Axios (which was slightly misplaced and has now been corrected), Zeugma, Damascus, Sidon, Jerusalem and Gaza. I used to have Palmyra but I've removed it as I don't believe it was significant at this stage. Also, the road from Damascus to Europos via Palmyra has been removed, so that armies have to take northern Syria before advancing into Babylonia. Unless they choose to march through the desert, that is (unfortunately that is possible, but if it keeps happening I can put in some invisible impassible terrain).

[Antiokhos Euergetes]

Have you considered Seleukeia Pieria as well? It remained in Ptolemaic hand after the third Syrian war, until regaining by Antiokhos III in the fourth war! I will have to and consult my books, and the very least I enjoy the discussion. This is also the perfect opportunity for some self advertisement. http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ellenistic-Mod If you would care to go and give your highly valued opinion, perhaps even a helping hand very occasionally?

[Caligula Caesar]

I can't say I had really considered it. I know its historical significance (apart from what you mention, when the Seleukids retrieved Seleukos I's ashes, they were buried in that city, which perhaps indicates that it was originally meant to be the main city - its original size is also larger than Antioch's, which was iirc the smallest of the tetrapoleis but was later expanded three or four times, whereas the other cities stagnated). But the truth is that Seleukeia is literally right next to Antioch, and having four cities in Northern Syria (including Zeugma) is someone over the top when the rest of the map also needs to be represented! At the moment, it (and Laodikeia for Apameia) is represented as Antioch's port, which is imo probably best.

Your mod seems like a nice idea, although I'd advise moving the start date back a bit, since by 160 Rome hadn't just entered the Hellenistic world, she basically controlled it (although it took quite a while for her to exercise that control). After Perseus fell and once the Seleukids started fighting each other, there was no one left who could realistically resist the Romans, so theoretically it should be quite a boring campaign to play as Rome (but quite interesting as a small power trying to survive). Mind you, it would be a challenge to represent it properly! I should warn you, making a mod is a big undertaking...

Also, I now have some pics of the map. Unfortunately I can't upload them right now, because my internet in my flat is not only ludicrously slow but has weird filters (it blocks photobucket, and apparently anything to do with cricket...). So I'll upload them in a couple of days.

[Antiokhos Euergetes]

'Rome enters Hellenistic World' was generally for map, I'll have to clear that up. Of course you are right, that honour lies perhaps in first Illyrian war. To be clear the game map will cut off at Sicily and stretch to India. Still making it pretty easy for Romans, but with citizen army and socii still to rely on, you will have maintain your lines of communication.
I do not want to hijack your thread so perhaps if you have some time later I have a few start dates in mind, plus factions, which will obviously depend on date. Pleasure discussing history with you
Χαίρε
Antiokhos

[Caligula Caesar]

Here's the latest map pics. There's some tweaks to the political map, but a lot of it is also geographic improvements. To illustrate that, I'm putting in some shots of how it was before (although I'm being slightly unfair to the 'before' ones, since they are taking from the old 2010 map preview and the map has seen changes since...).

Spoiler for Previous: 

Spoiler for Previous: 

Spoiler for Previous: 

Spoiler for Previous: 

(I can't find an old screen which would be a fair comparison...)

Spoiler for Previously: 

Spoiler for Previous: 

(Note that Uruk/Orchoe had been removed since that shot)

Spoiler for Previous: 

Spoiler for Previously: 

(Note that the Chorasmian region was removed after this pic but is now back)

I can't find any old pics of this area.

[Antiokhos Euergetes]

Very nice work, is this due for release or are there other plans?

[Stath's]

I like it very, very much. Especially Egypt, it is like it has come out of a geographical table map.

[Caligula Caesar]

Nah, there isn't that much point in just releasing some map tweaks. I'm in the process of doing work on the buildings and the economic system, and when I get to a reasonable cut-off I'll make a release

[tungri_centurio]

about the economics.im new to this mod and have no idea on how to make good money with the belgae or any faction with FO(or RTR itself)

playing m/m year is 261bc making 2000 per turn but have no army left to defend myself.if i make one i go bankrupt 4turns later or so...
only captured atautuca in the first turns and than disolved the army since i was already in the red.
even had to use add money cheat(never used that before) to get out of the red a little bit,or i was like30000 in the red by turn 15?

can someone give some tips on how to support one army and still make some money with FO??
always played RS2and there you have loads of cash(witch i prefer) wanted to try something else and installed RTRVII and FO
on the first look it is a really nice mod.so nice work guys.

cheerz

[Caligula Caesar]

It's designed so you basically need to build the government buildings to get money. But, frankly, the economy and the balance thereof needs some work... I've been doing some work on it, and it will be better in the next version, which will hopefully be out in a couple of weeks, or maybe a month (it will be big, though). At the moment, unfortunately, it is probably more a really nice-looking mod which doesn't quite work But that will change. Anyway, VII is probably the better bet for now!