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Thread: [Faction Research] Duchy of Britanny

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    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default [Faction Research] Duchy of Britanny

    This thread will about about everything related to the Duché de Bretagne. Army composition, family trees, political situation, etc. Ready to give info?

    St. Polycarpe.

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    SonofPeverel's Avatar GLORY TOTHE BROTHERHOOD
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Duchy of Britanny

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails brittany.JPG  
    Last edited by SonofPeverel; November 11, 2011 at 04:50 PM.

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    lolIsuck's Avatar WE HAVE NO CAKE?!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Duchy of Britanny

    I don't see anything, SonofPereval

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    SonofPeverel's Avatar GLORY TOTHE BROTHERHOOD
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Duchy of Britanny

    HUh i posted the family tree from brittany..i see it fine..idk you cant
    i attached attached a jpeg..let me know if you can see that?
    Last edited by SonofPeverel; November 11, 2011 at 04:48 PM.

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    lolIsuck's Avatar WE HAVE NO CAKE?!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Duchy of Britanny

    I can see the attachement

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    SonofPeverel's Avatar GLORY TOTHE BROTHERHOOD
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Duchy of Britanny


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    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Duchy of Britanny

    Sorry SoP, I totally forgot we had this already but we have the family tree, that's a good start.
    Now the army of this duchy! I've done few researches but seems their army composition was a sort of hybrid of English and French armies. Thoughts?

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    Arglwydd Rhys's Avatar Ikko-Ikki
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Duchy of Britanny

    Brittany is a Brythonic duchy so maybe add a bit of welsh influence as well as English and French

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    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Duchy of Britanny

    Quote Originally Posted by Arglwydd Rhys View Post
    Brittany is a Brythonic duchy so maybe add a bit of welsh influence as well as English and French
    Indeed, do you have additional info regarding this faction? That would be great.

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    VINC.XXIII's Avatar Dûxe
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Duchy of Britanny

    Glad to see this thread open!
    Duché de Bretagne(official french name)/Dukelezh Breizh( briton version)
    Principal fiefs: Comté de Léon, Comté de Cornouaille, Comté de Penthièvre.

    Here you can see how looks globaly the ancient divisions, out the mentioned counties, a "ducal desmene" can be formed by the "Pays Vannetais" and "Pays Nantais", other provinces would be the rest of the lands, divided in 4 entities(the mentioned "Comtés").
    Dynamic and bishopric cities were: Nantes, Rennes, Saint-Malo and Vannes

    the map:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    bishopric map(with vernacular names)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    I could propose later a rationalized shema of provinces, but I guess the limit would be 4/5 provinces.(?)



    Leader title: Duc
    Heir Faction title: Comte(assigned to Léon, Cornouaille, or Penthièvre)


    Council of the Duke:

    Chancelier de Bretagne he was appointed to represent the Duke's interests about the Justice Acts, globaly a sort of first minister, a regent's advisor...etc
    He shoudn't be a general, the Chancellors were jurists, clerics as laics, no way to see him leading an army


    Maréchal de Bretagne
    First military commander after his lord, the Duke.
    http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar%C3%A9chal_de_Bretagne
    Obviously a noble.


    Connétable de Bretagne: third commander of the briton armies, particulary appointed to the cavalry, but he can help or same monitor the Maréchal...
    Obviously a noble.

    I will see later for the naval chiefs, and palace offices.


    Faction symbol stuff:

    The two symbols are the "hermine"(ducal symbol, to use with parcimony) and the black cross on white background, which can be the more common symbol.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Black Cross


    The "hermines"


    Banner of Saint-Yves(sort of breton knight's patron)


    the Duke of Brittany, at 1250, Jean Ier(after his death, the arms become "plain of hermine", no more square yellows and blues)




    Little info about the "culture" in Brittany:
    The dynasty was french(capetian, House of Dreux)
    Rural peoples used only the britton until the 14th century, after many angevin peasants goes in Brittany, which made the rural areas more "french" in eastern Brittany. The cities were naturally more sensibles to the french influence.
    In all cases, the Brittany can't be considered as totally culturally french before 1918...nor as a gaelic land like the Hebrides at 1250AD.
    According some french historians, 80% to 90% of Britton inhabitants ignored the french idiome before the Ordonnancy of Villers-Cotterêts.(1539), which have forced judges, merchants,notaries, clerics...etc to use the french idiome in official/financial/notarial documents.
    Last edited by VINC.XXIII; November 13, 2011 at 11:20 AM.


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    Arglwydd Rhys's Avatar Ikko-Ikki
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Duchy of Britanny

    do you have additional info regarding this faction?
    no sorry - all i know is that they spoke a similar language to Welsh and Cornish and their symbol is the Ermine.
    La guerre de cent ans mod had a Brittany faction. You could take inspiration from that if you havn't got enough info already.

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    knight_12's Avatar Shisai
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Duchy of Britanny

    Hi all. I have this photo of the banners from the House of de Rohan. I hope it will be usefull for the research

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    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Duchy of Britanny

    Interesting info all (sorry for the answer delay), that will greatly help us. Here's a brief description

    Faction Name: Dukelezh Breizh (since most people were Britons in 1245)
    Culture used: Brythonic (Main), French and English culture (secondary ones; influence).

    Army composition: Quite tricky but both English (and Wales) and French influence were there for sure. Perhaps longbow user in their army composition. Cavalry? Probably but equivalent as the rest of the french counties? Feudal based army? Thoughts.

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    Hengest's Avatar Dominion of the Sword
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Duchy of Britanny

    I would suggest that the Bretons use lots of local levies. I don't think the Duchy had the cash to recruit so many British mercenaries such as longbowmen because they could actually ask a good price, and were then fielded as elites in large campaign mobilisations by the Crown.

    I'd put my money on crossbowmen and peasant polearms such as glaives, which were effective against French heavy cavalry. One mistake mods normally make with peasant polearms is that they were good at receiving charges- they weren't. Just because polearms were good against cavalry people assume the weapon was used head-on, it wasn't- the polearm was only useful in melée where it would unhorse a man. Once a cavalryman was stationary he was screwed. Spearmen would encircle a horseman and poke holes in his mount to bring him down and then finish him off on his back, a horseman couldn't be effective stationary swinging a sword or even a spear when faced with polearm infantry that couldn't be reached behind the stretch of their weapons. Untrained infantry simply could not withstand a charge from cavalry of any kind.

    One of the reasons horses usually had barding on its front is because cavalry would just hit polearms head on and plough right through them. Callops were the real dangers. Stakes were far more effective than polearms, since stakes wouldn't be parried by the force of the charging horse.
    Last edited by Hengest; November 18, 2011 at 12:40 AM.

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    Deathshade's Avatar Discens
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Duchy of Britanny

    The army of the Duchy of Britanny was one of the most important army of the West.
    It was composed of 2500 men including 400 knights.

    Here is a link, in french, http://crm.revues.org/11823

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    Hengest's Avatar Dominion of the Sword
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Duchy of Britanny

    400 men in an army of 2500 seems extraordinarily high to me, since a knight usually had a very large entourage. I really dispute 400 knights as well since that is a very high number in any medieval NATIONAL army never mind a provincial one. I think you've taken cavalry to mean knights, which is not really the same thing. An army of 2500 is a reasonable number for a Duchy, but it does not make it particularly powerful nor any indication of how rich it was or how much of its military could use the resources of mercenaries. One mark of good solid armies at this time was its content of varied mercenary troops. A provincial army that could not afford foreign mercenaries were themselves usually dependent on their own regional levies and their characteristics. There were no significant exports of Breton local troops so we can deduce that they weren't much cop.

    Economically Brittany was not especially well-off, with no especial trade resources. Politically during your mod period, Britanny was not really able to assert its independence from England or France.

    I'm also not convinced that the faction should have a Breton name for the sake of appearance, if you want to be historical. It's rulers and the warrior caste were predominantly Gallo French speakers.

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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Duchy of Britanny

    Quote Originally Posted by Hross View Post
    I would suggest that the Bretons use lots of local levies. I don't think the Duchy had the cash to recruit so many British mercenaries such as longbowmen because they could actually ask a good price, and were then fielded as elites in large campaign mobilisations by the Crown.

    I'd put my money on crossbowmen and peasant polearms such as glaives, which were effective against French heavy cavalry. One mistake mods normally make with peasant polearms is that they were good at receiving charges- they weren't. Just because polearms were good against cavalry people assume the weapon was used head-on, it wasn't- the polearm was only useful in melée where it would unhorse a man. Once a cavalryman was stationary he was screwed. Spearmen would encircle a horseman and poke holes in his mount to bring him down and then finish him off on his back, a horseman couldn't be effective stationary swinging a sword or even a spear when faced with polearm infantry that couldn't be reached behind the stretch of their weapons. Untrained infantry simply could not withstand a charge from cavalry of any kind.

    One of the reasons horses usually had barding on its front is because cavalry would just hit polearms head on and plough right through them. Callops were the real dangers. Stakes were far more effective than polearms, since stakes wouldn't be parried by the force of the charging horse.
    Agreed, crossbow was quite easy to understand the basics on how to use it plus been cheap to produce. Polearms hmm the earlier form of the polearm were the spear and the glaive, later on they would develop the bill hook and the voulge (around mid 14th) due to the increase of heavy armored foes. I'll make sure that the polearms will be good vs cavalry but won't be able to stand against a charge.

    Even if they were kinda independent from the French Crown, they were limited to the resources they have; average trade capability and raised force (excluding the recruitment of foreign mercenaries). Will try to depict this as much as we can.

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    Deathshade's Avatar Discens
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Duchy of Britanny

    Quote Originally Posted by Hross View Post
    400 men in an army of 2500 seems extraordinarily high to me, since a knight usually had a very large entourage. I really dispute 400 knights as well since that is a very high number in any medieval NATIONAL army never mind a provincial one. I think you've taken cavalry to mean knights, which is not really the same thing.
    No, I meant knight 'chevalier' in French. And the author himself say that it is a huge number for this time. The army of the Duke of Britanny was one of the most important and powerful army in the West, as I said. The number of 400 is the result of a calcul of the number of knight quoted in the 'Livre des ostz' (1294).

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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Duchy of Britanny

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathshade View Post
    No, I meant knight 'chevalier' in French. And the author himself say that it is a huge number for this time. The army of the Duke of Britanny was one of the most important and powerful army in the West, as I said. The number of 400 is the result of a calcul of the number of knight quoted in the 'Livre des ostz' (1294).
    Many factions in WotW have individual perks which grant them strat-map favors. What's the reason for this quite high number? I assume one factor which could play it's part in this number was the fact that it became a disputed area between the two crowns, military wise. Another factor may be the lengthy coastline, which would increase it's maritime income from the ocean depths. Not to mention that it acts as a port bertween tradelines between the northern kingdoms, from Rus and all the way to Jerusalem.

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    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Duchy of Britanny

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathshade View Post
    No, I meant knight 'chevalier' in French. And the author himself say that it is a huge number for this time. The army of the Duke of Britanny was one of the most important and powerful army in the West, as I said. The number of 400 is the result of a calcul of the number of knight quoted in the 'Livre des ostz' (1294).
    Interesting, is this the reason why the French had a hard time to make Britanny to request and summon the nobles and their retinue?

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