[Faction Research] County of Flanders

[Giacomo Colonna]

Just wanted to underlign about this small part of France. Because, more southerner provinces could have different bonus/civil musts(Picard lands had their owns customs) featured by the beffrois/bellfroys.
Anyway after its out topic

[Plumo]

What I also want to know, lollsuck:

County of Flanders: I asume the player is playing as the "count" ?

[lolIsuck]

The count will most probably be the faction leader yea.
Although at the starting date there was no count I tought, just a countess and SoP said me they had something fun for that but I still don't know what.

About the other thing, I will try to get it as historic as possible and give Flanders a unique taste, I think we can work that out.

[Plumo]

I would make it a difficult faction to play with.

Can I also know which settlements they will receive, and which ones will be close ?

If there is a design document, and I'm allowed to see it : with all pleasure .

[lolIsuck]

We haven't looked at the map yet, the team is at the moment working on the Britannia campaign and all we have for the other factions is what's in the threads I think.

[Polycarpe]

We haven't looked at the map yet, the team is at the moment working on the Britannia campaign and all we have for the other factions is what's in the threads I think.

Agreed, those threads are mostly public researches, if you want to suggest a list of settlements and regions held, please feel free to share.

[Plumo]

For the settlements:
These are musts (modern Flemish Spelling): Gent, Brugge, Ieper, Kortrijk,... of course, alot of minor settlements:

Dominion of the Sword has an interesting way of implementing minor cities, if you are not familiar with it, check their forums. In Short: Using stone forts to portray minor settlements. As Flanders was densely populated (compared to most of the rest of Europe) this can be interesting.

Gameplay:

The count was often struggling (in the 13th and 14th century almost always) to maintain his power,as the big cities tried to gain more and more independence. Historically, these cities often tried to buy their way out of military service for some time.

Can be interesting. Imagine you are in debt (playing as the count). The city of Bruges can offer you 2000 Flemish pounds. In exchange they can demand that they don't have to contribute to the war effort for a year ( or 2). Or they can ask "prestigious" benefits, f.e.: from now on the soldiers of Bruges walk in front of the soldiers of Ghent ( they really cared about this alot!!!) while on the march. Thus decreasing public happiness in Ghent and a bit in Ypres (Ieper) and Kortrijk.

[Polycarpe]

For the settlements:
These are musts (modern Flemish Spelling): Gent, Brugge, Ieper, Kortrijk,... of course, alot of minor settlements:

Dominion of the Sword has an interesting way of implementing minor cities, if you are not familiar with it, check their forums. In Short: Using stone forts to portray minor settlements. As Flanders was densely populated (compared to most of the rest of Europe) this can be interesting.

Gameplay:

The count was often struggling (in the 13th and 14th century almost always) to maintain his power,as the big cities tried to gain more and more independence. Historically, these cities often tried to buy their way out of military service for some time.

Can be interesting. Imagine you are in debt (playing as the count). The city of Bruges can offer you 2000 Flemish pounds. In exchange they can demand that they don't have to contribute to the war effort for a year ( or 2). Or they can ask "prestigious" benefits, f.e.: from now on the soldiers of Bruges walk in front of the soldiers of Ghent ( they really cared about this alot!!!) while on the march. Thus decreasing public happiness in Ghent and a bit in Ypres (Ieper) and Kortrijk.

Yes I have seen the system DotS implented with the PSF, this will be in consideration but personally I find their feature too crowdy, yes we will surely put PSF but not as much.

The gameplay part, I really like it, perhaps this could be applied to every large and urban settlement where once in a while. the governor of a settlement will provide additional taxes to not contribute to war, hense increasing the happiness of the settlement, quite intriguing, will try to design more the concept.

[Plumo]

In Third Age:TW they have a feature like independence for Fangorn or the Shire, giving the player no control of these settlements. I'm not sure though if this 'independence' can be given for a limited amount of turns.

Maybe this concept can be implemented as well for other 'nations', most preferably kingdoms where the king has not much control of his vassals. F.e. France.

Some regions with a lot of autonomy can be vassals within the French domains. So when you play with France, you can't build nor recruit units in Burgundy (f.e.). In Exchange the duke of Burgundy supplies units when you rally your vassals for a campaign.


Economic:
-Flemish income also should rely on trade, in particular English wool! No trade agreement with England or blocked ports would be devastating for Flanders' economy. If you support France (which is at war with England) and the English break the trade agreement, your population in the big cities will openly revolt.

[Plumo]

2 other historical features I was thinking about:

- Demands from the king of France:
Flanders was officially a vassalage of the French king, but there were many armed conflicts.
Often after a French victory, the french king demanded that the major towns demolished their walls and he forbid them to construct new fortifications for some time. ( I'm not sure if the Warscape engine can support this, walls are removed but population and constructable buildings remain on the same level as before)

Refusing / rebuilding without permission triggers French ire, and if the king has the resources and time, he can invade (punitive campaign).


- 'Balfaart'
When the mod starts (1245),feudalism was on the decline. But still in the 13th citizens were supposed to help with building moats and fortifications in their own town (for free, as a sort of service)

This enables you to build fortifications quite cheaply and fast, at the cost of some happiness and income.

In the 13th century, this custom disappeared completely in Flanders. Building walls will be more costly after that event.

[Ritterbruder44]

some small suggestions to increase the unique feel of the Flemish county:

-since I assume Ghent will be included as a region capital, why not include 'de witte kaproenen', I'm sure the history experts will recognise this unit, but for the mod devellopers in short:
'de witte kaproenen' (the white chaperons) was a sort of vigilanté militia from upper-class citizens that caused a lot of turmoil in the area around Ghent during the French occupation (rebellion in 1379)
this could be a unique unit for the Flemish faction during gameplay (light mail infantry with billhooks and a white hat)

-there are also a few notable people from our history books that lead rebellions (usually unsuccesfull ones ) after the occupation of the county. Perhaps it would be interesting to make them pop up with a small army every time the French take a region with strong(er) German (since they're pretty anti-French) culture:
-Klaas Zannekin (leader of 'de Kerels', destroyed in 1328)
-Filips van Artevelde (took Ghent in 1382)
-Pieter coutereel (rebellion leader of Leuven, depending on the regions included)
(Breydel en de Coninck vind ik persoonlijk wat overroepen )
also Jacob van Artevelde as a diplomat (very prominent figure during the 100-years war), he was the father of previously mentioned Filips

-I'm also siding with the 'small-pike' party here. I don't think Flemish infantry was any more exquisite with long pikes than any other army.
I'm not able to present any sources right now on it, but the way I see it, our reputation for being 'cavalry-exterminators' comes pretty much from one open battle in which we made the french over-confident knights plunge into a small moat and thus denied them their charge and victory.
the goedendag was a fabulous weapon for multiple tasks, but we still got owned 20 years later, and since then (it makes my heart bleed to say ) we've been the of most major powers in europe until 1830

and lastly, on a not-realy-related-point: are they also going to include prince-bishops? something like warrior-cardinals with special features? (thinking of the prince-bischopric of Liège and Köln now )

EDIT: for the ones wondering about the sources of the first 2 links: they're based on ' 's lands glorie', old junior history books which jump from person to person in Flemish history. Not the most solid arguments on general politics, but they provide some interesting stuff for personalities

[Plumo]

- I think Flanders ought to have more than one region capital, Bruges can be second imo.

- I think spawned armies have to be implemented for Flanders. Often the count of Flanders didnt mobilize them, but the towns rallied anyhow.

[Ritterbruder44]

- I think spawned armies have to be implemented for Flanders. Often the count of Flanders didnt mobilize them, but the towns rallied anyhow.

isn't garrison script implemented anyways?

[lolIsuck]

Yes, garisson script will be implemented. For the cities, of course both Ghent and Bruges will be included. Leuven was the capital of the Duchy of Brabant, another important faction in the region that we unfortunately cannot include but Leuven will be included too.

[Ritterbruder44]

Yes, garisson script will be implemented. For the cities, of course both Ghent and Bruges will be included. Leuven was the capital of the Duchy of Brabant, another important faction in the region that we unfortunately cannot include but Leuven will be included too.

sad that my home region isn't included, but then, they don't differ that much from Flanders or Limburg

[Giacomo Colonna]

I have a little question of details, I've read that flemishmen who were Arteveld supporters wore some white hats/cap. Their enemies, had a green hat, to mark the loyalty to the bourguignon "party".
These infos are from "L'Etat Bourguignon", Bertrand Schnerb. Its a generalist book, not more infos about these hats...
Do that concerned only their civil appearence, or those colors were represented also in battle, perhaps some chiefs of each party could have these hats?

[lolIsuck]

sad that my home region isn't included, but then, they don't differ that much from Flanders or Limburg

What's your home region?

[Ritterbruder44]

I have a little question of details, I've read that flemishmen who were Arteveld supporters wore some white hats/cap. Their enemies, had a green hat, to mark the loyalty to the bourguignon "party".
These infos are from "L'Etat Bourguignon", Bertrand Schnerb. Its a generalist book, not more infos about these hats...
Do that concerned only their civil appearence, or those colors were represented also in battle, perhaps some chiefs of each party could have these hats?

those white caps are 'de witte kaproenen' from Ghent, as described in my earlier post. Ghent pretty much took over the leading role for Flemish independance after the defeats in 1320 and the occupation of the county

[Ritterbruder44]

What's your home region?

Antwerpse kempen (In de middeleeuwen deel van Brabant),
och Turnhout, stedeke schône...

I actually meant I was sad Brabant wasn't included

[Giacomo Colonna]

ah just great, sorry to haven't read the post before
I think I have such shafted crescent in stock...

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