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Thread: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

  1. #61
    Dr. Croccer's Avatar Tribunus Laticlavius
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    Quote Originally Posted by lolIsuck View Post
    This is what I have got so far, additions/changes are of course possible and welcome

    Flanders unit roster

    Infantry
    - Boerenmilitie (peasants)
    - Stadsmilitie (town militia, with falchion)
    - Piekeniers (pikemen, you might want a heavier armed one and a militia-like one)
    - Serianten (warriors/soldiers, a little lighter than soldeniers)
    - Soldeniers (soldiers, armed with goedendag)
    - Poorters (rich patricians, good armour, with sword I guess)

    Missiles (haven't got a lot as normal bow wasn't really in use anymore, possible peasant archers or lighter crossbowmen)
    - Schutters (crossbowmen, accompanied by garsoenen who carried their pavise shields)

    Cavalry
    - Poortelijke ruiterij (rich patricians, providing the cavalry from the cities
    - Edelknapen (squires)
    - Nobelen (nobles/knights)

    Garsoenen could be added as a unit, they protected the crossbowmen against missiles. Could have high defense but low attack.
    I translated a few of these Modern Dutch words into Middle Dutch, so it would be a bit more authentic.

    So,

    Schutters - Scutters or Scotters (Boghescutters or Cruceboghescutters, depending on how they're armed)
    Boerenmilitie - Geburemilice
    Stadsmilitie - Statsmilice or Stadsmilice
    Piekeniers - Pijckenaere or Pijckeniere
    Serianten (Sergeants) - already Middle Dutch, alternatives could be sergant, serjant, sirgant, sargant, sariant, sarzant and scariant.
    Soldeniers - Soldenaere or Soudenaere
    Poorters - Porteres (not sure about conjugation, singular is Portere), or alternatively you could just say Portewachters.
    Poortelijke ruiterij - Portelijce Ruterie
    Edelknapen - Edelcnape
    Nobelen - Nobele, alternatively Edele
    Garsoenen - Gaersoene, Gartsoene

    Note that spelling during this time greatly varied from person to person and from region to region, so there could easily be better alternatives to the ones I posted.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    C am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu brth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhthein buaile fs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an ird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jrg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Trnen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Trnen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  2. #62
    Dr. Croccer's Avatar Tribunus Laticlavius
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    I should note that Modern Dutch ''Boer'' wasn't common in the Middle Ages, and most likely gradually worked its way into western dialects via Frisian and Low Saxon. Its likely that during most of our period the word wasn't in usage in Flanders. For example, in the Gruuthuse manuscript there is the ''Kerelslied'', which is an aristocratic song of contempt for the farmers, which indicates that the term Kerel (which is derived from the archaic Germanic freeman class, the Scandinavian Karls and Anglo-Saxon Ceorls) was still synonymus with peasants and farmers in general. So a better name for the Boerenmilitie could be Kerelsmilice.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    C am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu brth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhthein buaile fs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an ird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jrg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Trnen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Trnen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  3. #63
    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    Very good information you have there Dr. Croccer, +rep.

    Perhaps, if you and everyone interested to provide pictures, references regarding equipment, it will really helps us to design the models.

    Also, references regarding how they were training men, army composition, availability, etc. for Flanders along how the Flander's guilds were working will be greatly appreciated, perhaps you could suggest unique buildings, military laws and everything related to something unique to Flanders.

  4. #64
    Plumo's Avatar Taihō no heishi
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    @ Dr. Croccer. Can you translate to Middle Dutch and another question: the nobility and count, didnt they speak french in that time?
    ( I'm Flemish as well btw)


    For County of Flanders I would use a special system to reflect their city-based society. Very low recruitment cost for militia units, even for elite militia units like the St. george crossbowmen. BUT: 1) high upkeep costs and 2) guild buildings cost money/upkeep, with that they 'prepare and ready the militia' even before you recruit a unit.

    Unique buildings:

    St. George's crossbowmen guild ( St. Joris scutters gilde)

    Pavise crossbowmen. High upkeep. Limited amount. Well equiped, well armoured.

    Bellfroy: medieval bell tower / municipality ( Belfort)

    Replaces Town hall.



    Cloth hall: (Lakenhalle)

    Should replace the top market building in the market chain of vanilla medieval 2.
    Requires wool. Produces cloth / linen / tapistry.

    BTW: Deus Lo Vult 6.x mod has a county of flanders faction
    http://totalwar.honga.net/faction.ph...v6&f=flanders

    Some inspiration, nothing more.
    Last edited by Plumo; January 06, 2012 at 07:56 AM.

  5. #65
    SonofPeverel's Avatar GLORY TOTHE BROTHERHOOD
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    What year is this map?

    HOUSE OF HADER

  6. #66
    Dr. Croccer's Avatar Tribunus Laticlavius
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    Quote Originally Posted by Plumo View Post
    @ Dr. Croccer. Can you translate to Middle Dutch and another question: the nobility and count, didnt they speak french in that time?
    I honestly don't know. I have quite little knowledge of Flanders during this period to be honest, the linguistics are the only area I thought I could give some help.

    My two cents, I think it would've been well-known by most literate members of the court and society in general. I don't know if they would've also used it as the lingua franca there, or even as their first language in everyday communication. It certainly is true that nobles, along with the clergy, had more than twice as many non-Germanic (read Romance) names than the commoners, but this was still barely 6% of their group. It's quite likely that France in general had a large cultural and political influence over Flanders.


    ( I'm Flemish as well btw)
    I'm Dutch, actually.



    Unique buildings:

    St. George's crossbowmen guild ( St. Joris scutters gilde)

    Pavise crossbowmen. High upkeep. Limited amount. Well equiped, well armoured.
    Sinte Jorijs Cruceboghescuttersgilde.

    [quote]

    Bellfroy: medieval bell tower / municipality ( Belfort)

    Replaces Town hall.

    Bellefoort or Balefroet.

    Cloth hall: (Lakenhalle)

    Should replace the top market building in the market chain of vanilla medieval 2.
    Requires wool. Produces cloth / linen / tapistry.
    Already Middle Dutch!

    I made a list of some names of the period.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Given names (Variations of the same name seperated with slashes):

    -Willard
    -Gwijde
    -Meno/Menoux/Menovius/Meinolf/Menulfus/Menrik
    -Hanric/Hanrijc
    -Florus
    -Diederic/Theodericus/Diedericus/Dierlay/Dirkinus/Dirric/Terricus/Thyloy/Tielooi/Tiedeman/Tiedemannus
    -Waltier/Weitinus/Weiteman/Weitsoet/Woir/Woitir/Woitinus/Wautem/Wouterloet
    -Robeloot/Robert/Ribrat/Riebrecht/Robertus/Robrecht/Robbien/Roibin/Robinus
    -Joannes/Han/Hannekinus/Jaen/Jehan/Jannes
    -Herman/Harman/Hermannus
    -Wilhelm
    -Hughemannus/Hughe/Hughelin/Hugheman

    Last names.

    -Witbart/Wittebort
    -Van/de *insert location here* such as, Antwerpia, Broecele, Waleland, Hennegau, etc.
    -Cnif
    -(le) Avaloys
    -(le) Fransoys
    -den Wale
    -Brugis (from Brugge. You could just make Latin declensions featuring placenames for any settlement or region as well, like Antwerpiae and such)
    -Waalsch/Walsch
    -Batselir
    -Blankard
    -Kinnebacken
    -Skerebaerd
    -Kimpen
    -Spicar
    -Scinken
    -Flandrensis
    -Den Vlaminc
    -De Brune
    -Bacre
    -Baeliu
    -Ridder
    -Scermer
    -Barlebaens
    -Brebart
    -Cleenheere
    -Hoesterlinc
    -Loeuin
    -Rouvoet
    -Svaif
    -Valke



    Here's a good source on the matter.

    http://www.keesn.nl/names/

    http://www.keesn.nl/name13/
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    C am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu brth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhthein buaile fs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an ird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jrg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Trnen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Trnen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  7. #67
    Plumo's Avatar Taihō no heishi
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    @SonofPeverel

    The map displays current remaining bellfroys. As you can see it is something typical of ancient Flanders region and near.

    @Dr. Croccer

    I ll check as well ( about french speaking nobility in flanders). Maybe together we can come up with an interesting building/ unit roster.

  8. #68
    Dr. Croccer's Avatar Tribunus Laticlavius
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    A bit more info

    I'm asuming the faction leader title is going to be 'Graaf'', and that's Grauve in Middle Dutch.

    Some townnames of the period (I don't know the map so I'm just gonna do the biggest ones of the region)

    Ghent - (really spelled alot of different ways, making it hard to determine which is the most ''authentic''') My choice would be just plain Ghent, as the different variations of it are the most common.
    Bruges - Brucghe
    Leuven - Lovanium, or Loven in the vernacular.
    Brussel - Bruocsella, or Brucellas.
    Courtrai - Curtrike
    Antwerp - Antwerpia, or Antwerpen.
    Liege - Lutke
    Namur - Namen
    Mons - Berghen
    Tournai - Dorneke
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    C am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu brth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhthein buaile fs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an ird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jrg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Trnen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Trnen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  9. #69
    lolIsuck's Avatar WE HAVE NO CAKE?!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    Quote Originally Posted by Plumo View Post
    @SonofPeverel

    The map displays current remaining bellfroys. As you can see it is something typical of ancient Flanders region and near.

    @Dr. Croccer

    I ll check as well ( about french speaking nobility in flanders). Maybe together we can come up with an interesting building/ unit roster.
    Tongeren has a Belfort? Missed that when I was there last week

  10. #70
    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    @Plumo, LolIsuck and Dr. Croccer

    Our team is very thankful with the information you provides, together, we will give something very unique to Flanders, even it was a small faction, they were quite different from England or France in several ways.

    We are currently trying to design it but all the building concepts you guys usually see will be completely removed and replaced with a totally new system which when it will be done, we will give you much more information, will try to give the info asap.

    Speaking of unique buildings, here's some comments

    Sinte Jorijs Cruceboghescuttersgilde
    One of the main features of the building system is several requirements is needed in order to get access to certain buildings; it will depends on the resources in the regions, the accessibility, historical fondation, specific place, etc. So what was the condition for Flanders to actually build this guild in a city? What was the main goal of that guild? Defense, trading, public order, etc.?

    Bellfroy
    Do Bellfroy works and do the same as town hall? If it's the case, what would it be special compared to the rest of the kingdoms?

    Now onto the units

    I'm currently trying to design something regarding the low tier units and militia perhaps would have to be separated into two types? One Tier One Militia; properly the basic militia with some training and equipment and the Second Tier Militia is militia with additional training, perhaps not as equivalent as professional regular soldiers but some sort of "Urban" Professional? Will try to get this done as well asap.

    @Plumo: Also to note, all the buildings will have "upkeep" so this won,t be an issue really, my idea regarding the militia was they would be Free Upkeep, cheap to recruit (Recruitment cost) but with a high Upkeep Cost (they are recruited to defend, not on military campaign).

    @Dr. Croccer: Great name list you gave us, it will open a greater variety for names. If there's also unique titles for Flanders, please let us know.

    Also, regarding the situation of Flanders in the Hundred Years' War, what were their political issue? They were still independent or under the French control?

  11. #71
    lolIsuck's Avatar WE HAVE NO CAKE?!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    The biggest part of Flanders was a fee of the French kings from the treaty of Verdun in 843 but the part west of the Scheldt was part of the Holy Roman Empire.
    Flanders wasn't under strong influence of the French king but at the end of the 13th and beginning of the 14th century the king tried to take Flanders under permanent control but he failed and was defeated at the battle of the Gulden Spurs. Flanders was acquired by Burgundy in 1384 and in 1482 it went to the house of Habsburg.
    So Flanders was independent and it was on the side of England (not suprising since they were highly depending on trade)

  12. #72
    Plumo's Avatar Taihō no heishi
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    Quote Originally Posted by lolIsuck View Post
    The biggest part of Flanders was a fee of the French kings from the treaty of Verdun in 843 but the part west of the Scheldt was part of the Holy Roman Empire.
    Flanders wasn't under strong influence of the French king but at the end of the 13th and beginning of the 14th century the king tried to take Flanders under permanent control but he failed and was defeated at the battle of the Gulden Spurs. Flanders was acquired by Burgundy in 1384 and in 1482 it went to the house of Habsburg.
    So Flanders was independent and it was on the side of England (not suprising since they were highly depending on trade)
    It is much more complicated. Keep in mind that the big cities in Flanders favoured good relations with England ( they needed English wool for their cloth/linen industry!). A lot depended on the current count of Flanders, some favoured independance from France, others were Frenchminded like Louis I, Count of Flanders. That's why at least 1 Flemish Count died at the battle of Crcy ( fighting the English!)

  13. #73
    Plumo's Avatar Taihō no heishi
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    Quote Originally Posted by St. Polycarpe View Post
    Sinte Jorijs Cruceboghescuttersgilde
    One of the main features of the building system is several requirements is needed in order to get access to certain buildings; it will depends on the resources in the regions, the accessibility, historical fondation, specific place, etc. So what was the condition for Flanders to actually build this guild in a city? What was the main goal of that guild? Defense, trading, public order, etc.?

    Bellfroy
    Do Bellfroy works and do the same as town hall? If it's the case, what would it be special compared to the rest of the kingdoms?

    I'm currently trying to design something regarding the low tier units and militia perhaps would have to be separated into two types? One Tier One Militia; properly the basic militia with some training and equipment and the Second Tier Militia is militia with additional training, perhaps not as equivalent as professional regular soldiers but some sort of "Urban" Professional? Will try to get this done as well asap.

    Also, regarding the situation of Flanders in the Hundred Years' War, what were their political issue? They were still independent or under the French control?
    1.Sinte Jorijs Cruceboghescuttersgilde:

    Only the biggest and richest cities had these guilds. The guild was not only a military organization, but also had a social function. It gave prestige to its members, who were accepted from the wealthy or 'middle class'. Although they fought in many battles over the centuries, it mostly was a social structure.

    So it was important for defense and public order, but also had a function that can't be easily translated into a medieval 2 mod: the importance of guilds in the County of Flanders.

    2. Bellfroy

    You are right. Although bellfroys are quite special ( cause they r mostly found in the County of Flanders) their function ingame would be equal to a normal town hall ( a bellfroy was a symbol of the wealth of a city + the permission they got from the count to build them)...

    3. 100 year's war

    Flanders position was quite complicated:
    I ll try to summarize relations between 1337 and 1453.

    Louis I (ruled 1322–1346) : pro-French. Anti-English.
    English boycot of wool export to Flanders sparking insurrection by Jacob van Artevelde from Ghent.
    1340-1345: Flemish insurgents 'allied' to England. Count Louis I in a form of exile to French territory.
    1346: count Louis I dies at the battle of crcy ( fighting the English).
    Louis II (ruled 1346-1384): neutrality in 100 year's war.
    1347: fled Flanders to France, because Flemish towns wanted him to marry an English princess.
    1382: with the help of a French army, reclaims his county from Flemish insurgents.
    1383: English aid for Ghent : Despenser's Crusade
    ...
    After that Flanders was together with Burgundy: which changed its allegiance in the 100 year's way a few times...
    Last edited by Plumo; January 17, 2012 at 09:42 AM.

  14. #74
    den_dean's Avatar Ikko-Ikki
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    looking forward to this awsome mod, when will the first preview for flanders be?

  15. #75
    lolIsuck's Avatar WE HAVE NO CAKE?!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    Not in the near future, the team is working on a Britannia campaign first so those factions are to be finished first.

  16. #76
    Plumo's Avatar Taihō no heishi
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    @lollsuck

    I hope I can keep contributing to the faction roster of Flanders. I just got some books from the library of Ghent.

  17. #77
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    Sure you can bro.
    Would love to really.

  18. #78
    VINC.XXIII's Avatar Dxe
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    "2. Bellfroy"

    all agreed that Flanders host many "town halls" called Bellfroy, and flemishmen merit it in first, but also don't limit the beffrois to the actual Belgium.
    The actual region "Nord"(Northern-France" ancient County of Boulogne) used probably the same word to name their "town hall"

    This part of France can be directly considered as "culturally" wallon, or the medieval equivalent

    Voir la carte des beffrois
    (watch the belffrois's repartition in northern France)
    Last edited by VINC.XXIII; March 10, 2012 at 06:34 AM.


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  19. #79
    lolIsuck's Avatar WE HAVE NO CAKE?!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    When I'm talking about Flanders in the medieval era I mean that area too.

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    Plumo's Avatar Taihō no heishi
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    @Rus-Bey

    The Belfroy can also be found in Nord-pas de Calais, I know.
    But remember, in the Middle Ages, parts of that area belonged to Flanders at different times, or was heavily influenced by both France and Flanders alike.

    @Lollsuck

    1. Will you only do unit research or will you also think about special 'mechanisms' for Flanders, to give it a unique style of playing?
    While reading books about the county, I can see many possibilities, but I don't know if the engine / vanilla M2 can support it.
    Last edited by Plumo; March 11, 2012 at 06:36 AM.

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