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Thread: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

  1. #41
    Plumo's Avatar Taihō no heishi
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    Chest ( made shortly after 1302) about flemish warfare ( battle of golden spurs)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Chest

    Interesting material.

    POORTERS: Flemish burgher who had acquired the right to live within the city gates of a city, and also had city rights.
    Membership of guilds like st. Sebastian (archers) and st. George (crossbowmen) was restricted to poorters.

    Thus Poorters are not necessarily patricians, although patricians are poorters.
    Last edited by Plumo; December 05, 2011 at 07:00 AM.

  2. #42
    lolIsuck's Avatar WE HAVE NO CAKE?!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    yea I know but rijke poorters doesn't sound cool for a unit

  3. #43
    Plumo's Avatar Taihō no heishi
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    True.

    I would devide the Poorters in groups.

    The members of St. George's (crossbowmen) guild and St. Sebastian's (archers) guild were poorters to be accepted into these guilds.

    Than you have the Mounted Patricians. Also patricians and poorters on foot.

  4. #44
    lolIsuck's Avatar WE HAVE NO CAKE?!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    most militia units were poorters too as Flanders' army mainly drove on it's urban militia

  5. #45
    Plumo's Avatar Taihō no heishi
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    I read somewhere (quotation forthcoming) today that only 10 % of the citizens were actually poorters ( they lived INSIDE the city walls AND had to buy their poortership)

  6. #46
    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    Let's see if I understood correctly

    The title of Poortersis a membership that can be bought if you have the money to have access to it, therefore it means any rich commoners (aka burghers, yeomen, or the like) were part of the Poorters. So in a sense, Poorters were part of the communal but on the "rich" side. So Noblelen are the equivalent and be part of the knights, so automatically they are Poorters but they are part of the nobility hierarchy.

    From what I've read, there's a little confusion regarding the Order of St. George in Flanders, indeed this patron was primarly set in England but perhaps, with trade rights and diplomatic relationship between Flanders and England that order spread outside England? If it's the case, they would be a professional retinue of crossbowmen?

    As Plumo indicates, the Order of St. Sebastian were part of Flanders and would have formed an elite force of archers but which kind of unit, longbowmen perhaps?

    @Jean-A-Luc

    May I give my two cent on the list, btw a rep is well deserved for suggesting this list along my unit guideline.

    Feudal Levies
    - Boerenmilitie (peasants)
    - Stadsmilitie (town militia)
    - Peasant Archers (generic peasant archers would go here)

    *These are the standard "militia" raised in emergencies and such.

    Warrior Levies
    - Militia Piekeniers, Piekeniermilitie? (militia pikemen)
    - Militia Schutters, Schuttermilitie? (militia crossbowmen, with pavise shields?)
    - Militia/Merchant Cavalry (if you implement such a unit, it would go here imo)

    *These is the semi-professional militia of Flanders used not just for garrisoning duty but also military campaigns

    Regulars
    - Piekeniers (regular pikemen)
    - Serianten (warriors/soldiers, assorted weapons, sword, mace...)
    - Goedendag(?) Soldeniers (soldiers, armed with goedendag)
    - Schutters (pavise crossbowmen)

    Household Nobles
    - Poortelijke ruiterij (rich patricians, providing the cavalry from the cities)
    - Poorters (rich patricians, good armour, with sword I guess, infantry)

    Seargents-at-arms
    - Nobelen (nobles/knights - bodyguards)

    Not sure about Edelknapen (squires). They would either be regulars or a kind of low level Household Noble (knights in training?)
    Boerenmilitie (Feudal Levies)
    The basic peasant levied as emergency such as the french Arrière-Ban I believe, so not really wear armours, use agricultural tool (scythe, spear, club, shovel, etc.).

    Peasant Archers (Feudal Levies)
    What would be the Flemish name for "Levied Archers", the mod won't really have much "Generic" units except on certain mercenaries and other professional units.

    Stadsmilitie (Militia)
    I believe this is the standard Flemish militiamen. Weapon? Goedendag perhaps or any other suggested common weapons given to the militia?

    Piekeniermilitie (Militia)
    The second main Flemish militiamen using the pike. Aside the weapon, which equipment they would have? Gambeson and leather probably.

    Schuttermilitie (Militia)
    The militia crossbowmen. Sadly, the game never exploit the historical fact about the pavise properly. From what LolIsuck gave, the crossbowmen were followed by Garsoenen which were pavise shield carrier. Unless there's other references given, we will consider to not put pavise shield in the back of the crossbowmen unless they were using specialized strapped back shield suited for that.

    Militia/Merchant Cavalry (Militia)
    Hmm do many Flemishmen were actually owned a horse suited or battle? I think the cavalrymen were either part of a more professional force or been part of the nobility.

    Piekeniers (Regulars)
    Obviously the professional Flemish Pikemen. May I have information regarding the number of them; were the pike militia were forming the main pikemen core of the army or the professional force were the one who were making the pikemen companies?

    Serianten (Regulars)
    Hmm which name will fit better for the professional swordsmen (one-handed weapons user) Serianten or Soldeniers?

    Soldeniers (Regulars)
    As above except this time for the goedendag users?

    Schutters (Regulars)
    Same thing regarding the Schuttermilitie's shield. Will this be into consideration for been part of the guild of St. George or another crossbowmen unit specific to that order?

    Poorters (Regulars)
    I suggest the Poorters been part of the Regulars, as I point out at the beginning, they were rich burghers but weren't part of nobility and any man could purchase the Poorter membership. They will form the cavalry force of the Flemish force.

    Nobelen (Household Nobles)
    I consider this as household nobles aka the Flemish knights instead of the bodyguard (even if some Nobelen were part of the royal retinue).

    So now what I believe we need:

    • A name for the General's Bodyguards.
    • A unique unit regarding the Order of St. Sebastian. I believe it will be a great addition but more infor regarding the order will be interesting, it is part of the Flemish trade?
    • If the references proved the case, an elite unit of crossbowmen for the Order of St. George.

    That was my two cent, please continue to discuss about it, it really helps us out!

  7. #47
    Plumo's Avatar Taihō no heishi
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    @ St. Polycarpe

    The St. George archer's guild existed in Flanders at least as early as the 14th century in Ghent and most probably earlier in Bruges.

    They were indeed pavise crossbowmen, poorters trained regularly with the crossbow. They are elite town militia, expected to uphold the law and safety in a flemish town. For each 2 "Scutters" ( in 14th century Flemish documents) there was a "cnape" ( assistant) to hold the pavise shield. (One source I found mentions they wear armour and carry a sword as well)

    The number of guildmen in both st sebastian's guild and st george's guild was limited but it can't have been more than a few hundreds per town in the 13th-14th century.

    COMMENTS ON ROSTER:

    The only problem I have with all rosters posted is that they are too varied I mean: most of the flemish army consisted of town & rural militia ( armed with a mix of weapons like goedendags, lances, ...) and not many regulars except the guildmembers of st. george and st. sebastian, patrician cavalry, the count's soldiers. I ll try to get a hand of a few books in the library here to help you with you roster.
    Last edited by Plumo; December 07, 2011 at 02:47 AM.

  8. #48
    lolIsuck's Avatar WE HAVE NO CAKE?!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    We have to make it a bit fun to play too Plumo.
    I think stadsmilitie should have falcons as weapons, the site states they were pretty common for militia as they were cheaper than swords

  9. #49
    Hengest's Avatar Dominion of the Sword
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    There were also guilds for swordsmen Saint Michael and the guild of gunmen Saint Anthony but these are much later- although I don't know what the end date of your mod is. From what I've read the units were usually in 50s similar to the constabulary crossbow units, the actual 'squires', shieldbearers and auxillaries around the guild members were much larger in size. Although contrary to this it seems 1 servant could serve 2 crossbowmen.

    Wiki actually gives some interesting info on the number of men in service but I haven't seen any first hadn sources about, so... Het gilde nam deel aan talrijke feestelijke schietspelen waaronder één der prachtigste feestelijkheden ooit door het gilde zelf ingericht, het Landjuweel van 1440. Er namen 58 Gilden aan deel met 580 schutters en 8.000 gildegezellen. 50.000 nieuwsgierigen en kijklustigen van het Graafschap Vlaanderen en omstreken hebben dit Landjuweel meegemaakt.

    The crossbowmen received double-pay in wartime, so in peacetime it seems they were also paid as a standing defence force. In wartime they received the same amount of pay as city knights. So I assume that means city knights were not actually given the same high status as provincial lords in that respect but were patricians. However it is clear that the constabulary forces and the guildsmen must have been absolutely elite in the Flemish state forces because their pay is so high- it also indicates that they were therefore highly trained and well-equipped. Since they were defence forces, I would argue that they were likely to be heavily armoured, which would be a nice gameplay touch IMO.
    Last edited by Hengest; December 07, 2011 at 10:20 AM.

  10. #50
    Plumo's Avatar Taihō no heishi
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    @Hross

    I checked the same website text with unit upkeep prices in war

    St. George pavise crossbowmen should have high upkeep.

    Also they carry a sword and armour, so after they fired all their arrows ( which according to '1302' sources happened quite quickly) they can fight as regular trained infantry.

    Some nice gameplay, true.

    Drawback would be high cost/upkeep and limited number recruitable.

  11. #51
    Hengest's Avatar Dominion of the Sword
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    I second that

  12. #52
    Plumo's Avatar Taihō no heishi
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    What I've never seen in Medieval II or any of its mods is a 'combined' pavise unit . It would be amazing and historically accurate if every 2 archers had an assistant holding up the shield. But I'm afraid this would cause problems in melee combat.

  13. #53
    lolIsuck's Avatar WE HAVE NO CAKE?!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    yea that would be cool but impossible I think

  14. #54
    SonofPeverel's Avatar GLORY TOTHE BROTHERHOOD
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    Quote Originally Posted by Plumo View Post
    @Hross



    St. George pavise crossbowmen should have high upkeep.

    Also they carry a sword and armour, so after they fired all their arrows ( which according to '1302' sources happened quite quickly) they can fight as regular trained infantry.


    Some nice gameplay, true.


    Drawback would be high cost/upkeep and limited number recruitable
    .
    After some research, this has really caught my eye. I think this would bring something really unique to Flanders. +rep

    HOUSE OF HADER

  15. #55
    Mathieu Of Belgium's Avatar Aquilifer
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    I personaly think that Flanders also should have two unique buildings
    the Butchers Guild (de slagers gilde) and the Weavers guild (de wevers gilde) as it were the two prominent members of those guild (Jan Breydel and Pieter de Coninck) who started the 'Brugse Metten' wich led to the Guldensporenslag (Battle of the Gulden Spurs)
    (reference: "De Leeuw van Vlaanderen" by Hendrik Consciences)

  16. #56
    Wallachian's Avatar Equites Cohortales
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    Here's a nice Flemish pic


  17. #57
    Plumo's Avatar Taihō no heishi
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    Butcher's guild seems unnecessary to me. Maybe instead of a building for each guild, add a charter camouflaged as "building" giving a citizens/city the right to form guilds... thus unlocking new units.

    Weavers and fullers were the most numerous guilds in terms of size and thus influence.

    For special guild building I would add the St. Joris schuttersgilde ( St. George's archer guild).

  18. #58
    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    We have planned a totally new way to develop buildings along your city, all the guilds will be present for sure but if you have any very unique building related to Flanders only, please let us know, for now it looks atm we have the St. Georges Archer's Guild but I would like to have more information regarding it, does this guild were only military related or have other responsibilities? Trade, public order or the like?

    @Wallachian: Thanks for the picture, Osprey is a great source for inspiration, Lord Hamilton will appreciate it.

    @Plumo: Are you able to form a new unit roster list with my suggested one? You said it was too large and some were just copy of a unit, a more compact, direct-to-the-source roster and some suggestions regarding the recruitment (cost, specific building, etc.) will be greatly appreciated. I believe the more stronger units were recruited from guilds I think but please confirm me if it was the case.

    @Hross: Excellent information regarding the upkeep and cost! I wonder if perhaps you may have some sources regarding the salary, equipment and training cost in the Middle Ages? I would try to make the values as accurate as possible and of course making the army quite expansive compared to the vanilla.

    Regarding the pavise carriers, I think due to the game's limit, we can't do that, seems we will be stucked to give a strapped pavise shield for them or completely remove it, what will be the best option?

  19. #59
    Plumo's Avatar Taihō no heishi
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    I'll do my best. During the holiday period I'll have the time.

  20. #60
    Princeps Prior
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] County of Flanders

    I like the idea of the St George's Crossbowmen being both elite crossbowmen and good melee soldiers, very unique and interesting for playablity I think, the County of Flanders will definately get a play through from me XD

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