View Poll Results: So, what do you think about the Crusades?

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  • Holy war/ Christian Jihad

    15 12.00%
  • Colonial Enterprise/ a tale of Greed

    25 20.00%
  • Act of self defense

    7 5.60%
  • A bit of everything above

    60 48.00%
  • Different Crusade, Different motives

    13 10.40%
  • God's will

    4 3.20%
  • A peacekeeping mission

    1 0.80%
  • Other (I'll explain)

    0 0%
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Thread: Crusades: Christian Jihad or "act of mercy"?

  1. #1
    Garbarsardar's Avatar Et Slot i et slot
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    Default Crusades: Christian Jihad or "act of mercy"?

    “For on the very day on which they had promised that they would
    surrender, Solomon and all the Turks, collected from neighboring and
    distant regions, suddenly fell upon us and attempted to capture our
    camp. However the count of St. Gilles, with the remaining Franks, made
    and attack upon them and killed an innumerable multitude. All the
    others fled in confusion. Our men, moreover, returning in victory and
    bearing many heads fixed upon pikes and spears, furnished a joyful
    spectacle for the people of God"


    Please read the sources provided below, although I'm sure many of you have better sources, and answer the poll's question.




    Here is a brief timeline:


    CHRISTIAN INVASION (1096- 1101)



    1096 April: The first organized crusader armies arrive in Constantinople, awaiting the arrival of the next 3 armies.
    — August: Ill-organized bands, inspired by the crusader movement and led by Peter the Hermit and Walter the Pennyless, set across the Bosporos, and start pillaging Asia Minor, before most of them are slain by Turkish troops.
    — December: The last of the 4 planned crusader armies arrive in Constantinople.
    1097 June 1: Following a siege of Nicaea, the Byzantine emperor makes a deal with the Turks, that leaves the city in his hands, and the crusaders expelled from it.
    — July 1: Battle of Dorylaeum.
    — September: Tancred and Baldwin, both of Bouillon, leave the bulk of the crusader army, and enter the territory of Armenia.
    — October 21: A siege is started against Antioch.
    1098 March 10: The Christians take control over Edessa.
    — June 3: Antioch falls to the Christian crusaders.
    — November: The Crusaders sets out on the last leg of the campaign towards Jerusalem.
    — December 12: The small city of Ma'arra east of Antioch, falls to the crusades. The crusaders shocks the Muslim world by eating human flesh from the adults and children massacred following their conquest. The Frankians would forever be referred to by Turkish historians as "cannibals".
    1099 July 7: The crusaders starts attacking Jerusalem, first with a procession around the city walls led by priests. As the walls do not fall down, as they had believed (referring to Bible myths), they first attack the walls in a wild and unorganized manner. After some days, standard military techniques are introduced.
    — July 15: Jerusalem falls to the crusaders, who kill almost all of its inhabitants. An estimate of 70.000 to 100.000 civilians are murdered.
    — July 22: Godfrey of Bouillon is elected Latin ruler of Jerusalem.
    1101: The last wave of crusaders arriving in Asia Minor are defeated by the Turks.

    CHRISTIAN DOMINATION (1101- 44)

    1109 July 12: Tripoli is captured by the crusaders.
    1120: The Kinghts Templar are founded.
    1124 July 7: Tyre is captured by the crusaders.
    1129 November: Crusaders attack Damascus.
    1137: The emperor of Constantinople and his army suppresses Antioch, making it a dependency.
    1144 December 25: Edessa is attacked by the atabek of Mosul, and due to its geographical isolation it surrenders to the Muslims.

    MUSLIM DOMINANCE and THE FALL OF JERUSALEM (1144- 87)


    1145: Pope Eugenius 3 proclaims a second crusade.
    1147: Christian soldiers leave for Asia Minor, starting the second crusade.
    1148: Instead of embarking on the dangerous mission of liberating Edessa, the crusaders besiege Damascus for a few weeks. But even this endeavour ends when they realize that their forces are too weak for the Muslims of Damascus.
    1149 July 15: The new church of the Holy Sepulchre is consecrated.
    1154 April 25: Nureddin captures Damascus.
    1160's: King Amalric of Jerusalem attacks Egypt on four occasions (1163, 67, 68 and 69). In the two first he has partial success — he doesn't take control of any lands but forces the rulers of Egypt to pay tribute to Jerusalem.
    1169: The reconstruction of the church of Nativity in Bethelem is completed.
    — March 23: Egypt submits to Nureddin.
    1174 May 15: With the death of Nureddin, Saladin takes over a Muslim state that stretches from the Tigris Valley to the Libyan desert, effectively surrounding the crusader states on three sides.
    1183 June 11: Aleppo submits to Saladin.
    1186 March 3: Mosul submits to Saladin.
    1187 May: Saladin invades the kingdom of Jerusalem.
    — July 4: The Latin army is effectively defeated in the battle of Hattin (north of Jerusalem and east of Acre).
    — October 2: Jerusalem surrenders to Saladin.

    WEAK CRUSADER STATES (1187- 1291)

    1187 Ocotber 3: Pope Gregory 8 of Rome declares the 3rd Crusade, and gets positive response from European rulers.
    1189: The 3rd crusade starts.
    1190 June 10: The German Emperor Frederick 1 drowns in Cilicia.
    1191 July 12: The crusaders takes control over the strategically important town of Acre.
    1192 September 2: The treaty of Jaffa is signed.
    1197: Start of a German crusade to Palestine.
    1198 August: Pope Innocent 3 proclaims the 4th crusade.
    1202: The 4th crusade starts.
    1204 April: The crusaders sack Constantinople.
    — May 9: Baldwin of Flanders is elected Latin emperor of Constantinople.
    1212: The Childrens' Crusade, where the Europeans hoped that children troops could bring forth the miracle needed to recapture Jerusalem. But most children were set up by Europeans sailors and sold as slaves in Egypt.
    1213 April: The 5th crusade is declared by pope Innocent 3.
    1217: The 5th crusade starts.
    1218 May 27: Damietta of Egypt is besieged by the crusaders.
    1219 November 5: Damietta falls to the crusaders.
    1221 August 30: The crusaders are defeated by Muslim troops at al-Mansura.
    1227: The pope excommunicates emperor Frederick 2.
    1229 February 18: The crusaders gets back the control over Jerusalem following the signing of a treaty by German emperor Frederick 2 and the Egyptian sultan al-Kamil.
    — The pope launches a crusade against Frederick 2.
    1244 July 11: Jerusalem is besieged by the Khorezmians.
    — August 23: Jerusalem falls to the Khorezmians.
    1258: Mongol troops sack Baghdad, destroying the city for decades to come.
    1261: Greek forces take back control over Constantinople.
    1268 May 18: Antioch falls to the Mamluks, and slaughter almost all of its inhabitants.
    1289 April 26: Tripoli falls to the Mamluks.
    1291 May 18: Acre falls to the Mamluks.
    — July: Beirut and Sidon falls to the Mamluks.
    — August: The crusaders evacuate from the fortresses of Tortosa and Chāteau Pélerin.


    So, what is your opinion on the Crusades?





    Brief History
    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04543c.htm
    Decrees of Pope Urban II at the Council of Clermont, 1095.
    http://falcon.arts.cornell.edu/prh3/.../clermont.html
    A "revisionist" perspective
    http://www.crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm
    Nice timeline
    http://crusades.boisestate.edu/timeline/1095-1099.shtml
    From this "classroom site"
    http://crusades.boisestate.edu/
    Last edited by Garbarsardar; April 25, 2006 at 07:56 PM.

  2. #2
    Romanos's Avatar Hey
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    Default Re: Crusades: Christian Jihad or "act of mercy"?

    A bit of everything above, each crusader and Moslem had there on agenda being religion, a new home, greed, war, personal power or just for the hell of it.

    Christian states
    Last edited by Romanos; April 25, 2006 at 08:05 PM.
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  3. #3
    Kscott's Avatar New and Improved!
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    Default Re: Crusades: Christian Jihad or "act of mercy"?

    I think the Crusades are villanized to much when pre-Islam most of the middle-east was byzantine. Many of those greeks must have been killed for there isnt much trace of them now. The First Crusade was the west aiding there eastern brothers who were just recently seperated. Each Crusade had different reasons, but often it was a wide mixture of thing.

    If anything I can't see how people use them against Christianity at all, yet fail to mention Islam was spread soley through way of sword.

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  4. #4
    therussian's Avatar Use your imagination
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    Default Re: Crusades: Christian Jihad or "act of mercy"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kscott
    I think the Crusades are villanized to much when pre-Islam most of the middle-east was byzantine. Many of those greeks must have been killed for there isnt much trace of them now. The First Crusade was the west aiding there eastern brothers who were just recently seperated. Each Crusade had different reasons, but often it was a wide mixture of thing.

    If anything I can't see how people use them against Christianity at all, yet fail to mention Islam was spread soley through way of sword.
    Yes, but you can't forget that what Alexius wanted were a few hundred trained mercenaries from the west to help reconquer Anatolia. He did not want and did not expect them to come by the tens of thousands, pillaging, looting, and killing all along their way.


    I'm reading A History of the Crusades by Runciman at the moment :original:

    Edit: And don't even get me started on the Fourth Crusade. That's one of my most favourite areas of study. (as some people obviously know)

    I really need to write that essay......

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  5. #5
    Kscott's Avatar New and Improved!
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    Default Re: Crusades: Christian Jihad or "act of mercy"?

    Of course, the Byzantines didn't expect the peasants to get so involved. It was rather foolish that they did..

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  6. #6
    therussian's Avatar Use your imagination
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    Default Re: Crusades: Christian Jihad or "act of mercy"?

    Yes, well the people's Crusade is another story. But armed fighters, knights, men at arms, all of them came in droves. It was only thanks to Alexius's quick wit and his Pecheneg police force that he was able to keep the warriors in line, even if it meant crushing their armies in battle.

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  7. #7
    John I Tzimisces's Avatar Get born again.
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    Default Re: Crusades: Christian Jihad or "act of mercy"?

    Quote Originally Posted by rome ac
    A bit of everything above, each crusader and Moslem had there on agenda being religion, a new home, greed, war, personal power or just for the hell of it.

    Christian states
    Why on Earth is Cilicia included as a part of Antioch? It remained independent of the Crusaders and allied to them...

  8. #8

    Default Re: Crusades: Christian Jihad or "act of mercy"?

    "Colonial Enterprise / A Tale of Greed".

    I think it was all about greed and a desire for more power.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Crusades: Christian Jihad or "act of mercy"?

    Different Crusade, Different Motives:

    However my thoughts on the Crusades in general:

    I do think the Crusaders tend to be villainized a lot and perhaps unfairly, but I think they also deserve a lot of criticism. I've never been a fan of fanatics of any denomination and many Crusaders certainly were that. Hordes of undisciplined soldiers coming to the "Holy Land" who beleived that they were doing Gods will by slaughtering Muslims and Jews(probably many of them civilians) in my opinion was crazy and is the biggest black mark on the crusades. But their fanatacism was also their undoing. Many commanders in the later Crusades engaged in risky and foolish operations, because they thought God would not let them loose, which ended in military disasters, greatly undermining the early successes of the early Crusades. However, I do beleive that many Crusaders probably felt they were doing the right thing(a horrifying thought I know) and cannot carry all of the blame. Much of the blame falls on religion and the Church and the primitive and simplistic faith that the Crusaders carried with them. The Crusades is one of those events that Atheists and Agnostics will have a field day with and I can't blame them. It pretty much somes up a lot of the reasons why people have problems with organized religion. In short its basically the whole idea of intolerance, simple "my God is better than your God" ideals, and blind faith that inspired flocks of Crusaders who commited attrocious acts of violence and beleived they were doing the right thing that makes the Crusades so frightening.

  10. #10
    Slimshoom's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Crusades: Christian Jihad or "act of mercy"?

    basically IMO a Christian Jihad...
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  11. #11
    therussian's Avatar Use your imagination
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    Default Re: Crusades: Christian Jihad or "act of mercy"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slimshoom
    basically IMO a Christian Jihad...
    Yes, different Crusades could have been considered "jihads", but the Fourth?

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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Crusades: Christian Jihad or "act of mercy"?

    whoops
    read it wrong
    ummm scratch my prior post....
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  13. #13
    Romanos's Avatar Hey
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    Default Re: Crusades: Christian Jihad or "act of mercy"?

    Quote Originally Posted by eXc|Imperator
    Why on Earth is Cilicia included as a part of Antioch? It remained independent of the Crusaders and allied to them...
    I do not know it should be little Armenia .
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Crusades: Christian Jihad or "act of mercy"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Honor&Glory
    "Colonial Enterprise / A Tale of Greed".

    I think it was all about greed and a desire for more power.
    If it was a 'colonial enterprise', why did the vast majority of Crusaders turn around and go home rather than settling in the Levant? The Crusader States were always desperately short of manpower and keen for permanent settlers rather than there-and-back-again pilgrims in arms. Yet they ultimately collapsed because most Crusaders went home rather than settling down over there.

    That's a very strange kind of colonialism.

    And if it was all about 'greed' then why did Crusading bankrupt so many participants? And why, despite this, did Crusaders continue to take the cross, even when it was well known that doing so tended to lead to financial hardship or even ruin? Why did the same families consistently dispatch sons on Crusade despite having suffered crippling financial losses from previous expeditions?

    Bankrupting yourself on a mission to the other side of the known world is a very strange expression of 'greed'.

    Perhaps something else was motivating these people. *Scratches head* Now, I wonder what it could have been ...

  15. #15

    Default Re: Crusades: Christian Jihad or "act of mercy"?

    A bit of everything.

    Seems like the Pope was originally more interested in trying to repair the schism of Orthodox and Christian than reclaiming the holy land. The Byzantine Emperor was more interested in reclaiming lost land.Crusader's varied, as would any soldier in joining the army. Some had religious reasoning, some had political or greed, but in general, it was an invasion. Like the original Roman conquest's of the region, or the muslim conquests of byzantine territory.

    They were not truly justified, but neither was the muslim conquest of the region or the turkish conquest of turkey. There were some great and evil people and actions on both side, but I Think it's biased or vain to see the crusaders as anything other than invaders. They weren't going to a christian-jerusalem valiantly holding out in a sea of infidels - they were invading land that had been Muslim since shortly after Muhammad's Caliph successors conquered it, around the late 600s to early 700s. Just like if south american's invaded North America today, they wouldn't be seen as 'liberator's or defenders of the rightful native-blooded America - they'd be invaders.

    I suppose the first was the most religious, in similiarity to the jihad's by the muslims going on today (in particular, the jihadists entering Iraq). After that, it really might become political (at least the second was, and the third became it after Richard realized they could never hold Jerusalem).
    Last edited by Ahiga; April 25, 2006 at 09:14 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Crusades: Christian Jihad or "act of mercy"?

    To answer this question you have to think like a very pious christian of the time (hard I know). Islam was a new heretical threat to Christianity, and the Church in it's mission to save as many souls as possible HAD to stop this spread (in order to save souls of course but probably with other motives). If you saw a virus spreading across your borders, you'd try to stop it's spread too. It's the same concept only with religion.

  17. #17
    John I Tzimisces's Avatar Get born again.
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    Default Re: Crusades: Christian Jihad or "act of mercy"?

    Quote Originally Posted by rome ac
    I do not know it should be little Armenia .
    Mmph. It looks like it is in the wrong place
    that looks like cilicia 300 years later if you'd ask me...

  18. #18
    Kscott's Avatar New and Improved!
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    Default Re: Crusades: Christian Jihad or "act of mercy"?

    Well thats good in theory, but from historical evidence we can deny this claim. Why then did the crusaders insist of going to Jerusalem even though the sacrens had taken it from the Turks? The best method seems to of finish of the Turks as they would have been the edge of Islam. However the Crusaders didn't take this path. Also, until later times Christians didnt seem overly concerned about stopping expansion in spain. (other than the spanish of course).

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  19. #19

    Default Re: Crusades: Christian Jihad or "act of mercy"?

    good points.

    before i go to bed i'll offer one final counter point.

    Perhaps the church needed some sort of event to "rally" christian europe into a bloodlust. I'm no expert on the crusades, but i'm sure the saracens gave the church what they needed.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Crusades: Christian Jihad or "act of mercy"?

    It was most certainly a holy war in the eyes of the average soldiers and some of the more fanatical commanders
    To many commanders it was a colonial war, gaining territory for their family members and nobles who would most certainly bring in a nice income to their "patron"
    And in many senses it was a defensive war, slowing the "heathens" advance. So not a territorially defensive conflict but theologically.
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