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Thread: Assyrian (or Babylonian) invasion of Greece

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    Default Assyrian (or Babylonian) invasion of Greece

    Kind of a spinoff from the other thread. Would a Mesopotamian type army have had more success against the Greek hoplites than the Persians did? The Assyrian infantry was more heavily armored, their cavalry arm was probably less developed, but that was usually ineffective for the Persians due to much of Greece's terrain. Also the Assyrians seem to have had a more effective and flexible command structure, campaigning as far afield as Egypt and the Iranian plateau, often simultaneously. So, say the Assyrians had more strong kings after Ashurbanipal and decided to eventually attack Greece, how different would the result have been.

    (Highly speculative) Assyrian soldier vs Nubian tribesman:

  2. #2
    Spike's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Assyrian (or Babylonian) invasion of Greece

    Assyrian from what period?

    Annokerate Koriospera Yuinete Kuliansa


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    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Assyrian (or Babylonian) invasion of Greece

    Serious response.

    First of all, we must both agree that Babylonians are hardly eligible, since their armies were a far cry from the Assyrian ones. So we'll go with Assyrians.


    So, what do we have to know about the Assyrians? First of all, they're badass. No, seriously:
    Quote Originally Posted by thefreedictionary.com
    badass [ˈbędˌęs] Slang chiefly US
    n
    1. a tough or aggressive person the meanest badass in town
    2. Assyrian the badasses took Lachish by storm and smote its people
    adj

    1. tough or aggressive a badass rock band
    2. excellent a real badass watch
    1. - analysis of the military. Depending on which era we're talking they differ, so we should all agree on Esarhaddon's era (the era which your picture represents).

    Structure

    The king was in overall command of the military, in both administrative and strategic ways. He took command of most large invasions, and would often command all large campaigns in person. However, the king would always have two field marshals ready to do his bidding, appointed from the more loyal generals. The field marshals would:
    >Possibly watch core areas of the empire while the king was gone (done by the senior officer; the junior one assisted the king) militarily;
    >Command flanks in battle (if the king took the center; the right was also the vanguard; the left was the rear guard)
    >Since flanks were predetermined divisions, they could actually command them as separate, self contained units;
    >Command campaigns if relegated for the task by the king.

    Then came the generals, who were Assyrian in ethnicity (although foreign mercenaries could be commanded by their own) and commanded the units of the army. The units were then subdivided, and, although there was no definite size, they were generally organized along the lines of 10's and 50's. The officers were generally promoted men.

    Composition

    The People Of Assur
    The Assyrian army relied on a core of Assyrians, who were professional troops. Assyrians fought in 4 classes - horsemen, charioteers, infantry and archers (who were each assisted by a pavise-bearer).

    The horsemen were a major element of the late Assyrian army. Each carried a bow or javelin, long spear (almost a lance, although wielded over-hand) and an iron sword. All were armored with heavy scale armor and helmets.

    Their tactical roles combined light and medium cavalry - they would scout, screen movements, skirmish with enemy infantry, attack chariots as well as delivering shock-flanking attacks and running down fleeing foes. This was numerically the third largest component of Assyrians, roughly 1:10 against the foot.

    Chariots were a remnant of earlier eras. However, they were far from redundant. As horsemen became better archery platforms, the chariot was made heavier, with 4 horses and 4 men aboard. They still carried large amounts of ammunition, yet their chassis was much heavier, and armored, as were the men. The chariots were nearing their final tier in evolution - just one step left towards the scythed chariot, which was the scythes themselves. These were a shock weapon. Small in number, unleashed only when the situation was ripe. So no, they wouldn't find themselves dying on the spears of the phalanx, since they were commanded by intelligent officers. A definite ace up the sleeve for the Assyrians, if used properly.

    The close combat infantry was armored with scale and helmets, armed with large reinforced wicker shields, comparable in structural strength to all but the heaviest wooden shields, as well as spears and iron/early steel swords. These men could definitely go head to head with the hoplites.

    The archers were mostly armored with scale, each assisted by a pavise bearer who was an apprentice archer, carrying composite bows and swords.

    The Auxiliaries

    The Assyrian army employed significant numbers of auxiliaries. These were generally slingers, javelinmen and archers, although Egyptians, Levantines and Chaldeans (Babylonians) could provide disciplined contingents of infantry.

    These were rarely at the thick of the fighting, used either as cannon fodder or screens.


    Performance in Greece

    Now, to understand this possibility, we must understand why the Achaemenids failed to conquer Greece (although through political machination they achieved a status of de facto seniorship over much of it).
    Here is an analysis by rez:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=160595

    Now, to sum it up, it was more of a sum of several unfortunate coincidences leading to a naval defeat, as well as unrest back home.

    In our hypothetical scenario, let's say Esarhaddon conquers Egypt, discovers of the lucrative trade routes to be found in the western Mediterranean from captive Greek mercenaries.

    He sends a force under one of his marshals to conquer Cyrenaica. It succeeds, albeit at a heavy cost - it is largely composed of levies from Kapatuka. Esarhaddon receives news of how deeply encroached these people, previously insignificant to Assyria, are along the coasts - threatening Phoenician and Egyptian rule of the seas. So he, after laying waste to Egypt, raising a fleet of Egyptians and Phoenicians and conscripting a large number of Cypriots to guide the fleet and army, marches out from the ore rich region surrounding Tarsus, to subjugate southern Anatolia. The Assyrians strike terror into the Anatolian peoples by razing Lykia to the ground, thus convincing the Lydians and Karians (all Anatolian peoples were closely related; almost like Greeks to Greeks) to surrender. Seeing this new threat from the east, Miletus and Ephesus offer an alliance as well as gifts. Esarhaddon accepts these. So in one campaign, much of Anatolia has surrendered to the Assyrians, their repute carving theoretical resistance up even before the armies arrive.

    However, Esarhaddon dies from sickness a year later, leaving his son Ashurbanipal in charge of the empire. Since many troops are spread pacifying the massive empire, the Babylonians, as per custom, revolt. Ashurbanipal calls large forces back home, where he crushes the revolt.

    At this time the Ionians, seeing what they believe is a time of weakness due to them being unaware of the empire's true power, call on Athenian assistance and revolt. A united Greek force sweeps down into Karia, using the fact their armies were all disbanded or in Assyrian service to pillage the land. They loot Halicarnassus and Sardis, among others, one force even reaching into Lykia, which is an Assyrian province not vassal, but turning back in fear of retribution. By this time, however, distress calls from the Karians have reached Nineveh. Ashurbanipal is enraged.


    So it begins - it is spring, Assyria musters and army of 60 thousand Assyrians and Mesopotamians, and reinforcements from Egypt, Tarsus and Phoenicia join the army. A massive fleet sets out from Tyre, joined by Cyrenaic and Egyptian ships at Cyprus. The Athenians, who have been ravaging the coasts, pull back all their ships. The total force numbers near 120 thousand troops.

    Ashurbanipal's plan is simple - raze Ionia and deport the populace, then steamroll the Aegean.


    They set out from Tarsus in early May, and have reached Ionia in three weeks. Karia is cleared of the raiders, Lydia is taken back. Halicarnassus is stocked with supplies from Egypt. The navy starts clearing the coast and islands of Ionian settlements.


    The Ionians are in panic. Most cities open their gates in hopes of reconciliation, yet none are forgiven. All are razed to the ground. 9000 hoplites make a stand at Ephesus, yet are slaughtered without much fighting by the vanguard. The survivors flee into the city, yet by the end of the day it is in Assyrians hands, no survivors.

    Masses of refugees flee to Miletus, hoping for extraction. Instead, the Assyrian cavalry (which is a novelty around there) catches up. Roads are littered with the dead and dying as the last Athenian ships are leaving the harbour. Unbeknownst to them, the Assyrian fleet has subdued the islands around the coast, and the ships are trapped. Most of the overladen fleet is sunk within sight of the coast. Miletus is in flames after a few days of desperate fighting.

    It is early July, and Ionia has been destroyed. The Athenians send messengers to Ashurbanipal with gifts and promises of fealty. The messengers are crucified.

    It is late in July, when most of the Aegean islands have been subdued. Ashurbanipal leaves his senior field marshal in Anatolia, sends his junior back to Mesopotamia to watch their backs with 15 thousand men each. He then marches north with 90 thousand troops, including most of the Mesopotamians and Iranian horse archers.

    2000 men ride into Mushka requesting safe passage. The Mysians offer fealty instead. They then go on to request help from all other states in the region.

    The Greek cities around the Marmara and Hellespont all swear allegiance to the Assyrians, and the Assyrians cross the Hellespont. After marching up the Dardanelles (mid August) the king receives news that the Thracians refuse to subordinate. He makes the decision of ignoring them.

    The Macedonians and Greek cities along the coast do not oppose him, instead helping supply his forces. By the end of August, the Assyrians are already in Thessalia. Some try opposing, but are crushed.


    All the while the Athenians have been sending frantic calls for assistance, and have secured the aid of Peloponnese and most of the surviving island cities. A force of 10 thousand men is sent to guard Thermopylae. However, since Athens was not yet the naval power it would become over a hundred years later, this force is not guarded by any substantial navy. Despite storms, the Assyrians land 3000 guardsmen behind the Greeks under the cover of darkness, surround and slaughter most of the Greeks, including some Spartans. This takes only 2 days.

    The Athenians are in panic, and start evacuating to Salamis, while others flee to Peloponnese. All Greek cities along the way are torched. Eretria is destroyed. The Assyrians destroy every city in Attica by September. The last hopes of southern Greece rest with the Peloponnesians. The Spartans provide 10 thousand. The Athenians - 10 thousand. Other Greeks of Attica - 5 thousand. Other Peloponnesians - 25 thousand hoplites. All this and a general levy of poor men to serve as peltasts. Thus, the total Greek force (50 thousand hoplites and unknown numbers of light troops) numbers more than the Assyrian one (10 thousand cavalry, 80 chariots, 40 thousand infantry and 20 thousand archer-spearman pairs, total 90k).

    The Assyrians, seeing that the Greeks are fortifying the isthmus, decide it is a good decision to try deviating their attempts. The Greeks are somewhat worried by this, so are unable to completely deploy. Ashurbanipal settles for winter, bringing in siege engineers and building forts.

    The isthmus is now fortified (late October). Salamis is taken by the Assyrians. Athens is no more.

    January - the Assyrian force has grown, with conscripts from recently conquered territories: Karians, Lydians, Thracians and Mysians. The Greeks are becoming more and more disunited, unable to overcome old enmities for long periods of time.

    March - the Assyrian force is now 130 thousand strong. They have achieved complete and total naval dominance. The Assyrians mount a force of 10 thousand guardsmen on ships, and sail south, towards Argos. The Argives leave the isthmus to protect their city, yet discover only a token force there, which is destroying the lands around the city. The real force is now at Sparta. Which is undefended and attacked. The Spartans move out to save it. Thus the isthmus is much more lightly defended. On 0600 hours, March 17th of 662BC, an attack on the wall of the isthmus begins. 35 thousand men attack the poorly constructed wall. It takes only a couple dozen minutes to scale and start demolishing it. Columns of Assyrians advance up the slope, move through and charge the panicking Greeks, who have not yet deployed the phalanx. Cavalry and arrows disrupt their attempts, and infantry gets among them with their sickle swords. A wholesale slaughter begins. The Greeks drop their shields and flee, yet get slaughtered by the thousands.

    The relentless pursuit leads the Assyrians deep into the Peloponnese. Towns, villages, cities, all either submit immediately or get taken by force and destroyed. The cream of the Greek society is dead. Itself lies in rubbles. Only Sparta still tries to make a stand in the Laconian valley, yet it simply gets starved out in a massive siege operation. Assyria rules Greece.



    So what went differently?

    Unlike the Persians, the Assyrians have effectively limited the risk of revolt back home, and mustered a massive force for invasion.

    Most importantly, however, the Assyrians enjoy complete naval superiority, which, in the end, was the deciding factor (in real life the Persians had the advantage on the ground, yet were unable to take the seas).
    Last edited by Ishan; November 12, 2011 at 04:39 PM. Reason: Osprey\Copyrighted stuff

  4. #4
    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Assyrian (or Babylonian) invasion of Greece

    Yeah, for a short analysis that about does it.


    And no reps?

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    DarthLazy's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Assyrian (or Babylonian) invasion of Greece

    Lazy approves. Lazy approves. Should I call conon and neoptolemos?
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Real imperialism is shown by Western apologists who are defending Ukraine's brutal occupation of Novorossija.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Sovereignty of Ukraine was recognized by Yeltsin and died with him.

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    Default Re: Assyrian (or Babylonian) invasion of Greece

    I too, approve of this post. Very nice, very detailed, very well thought out.

    Please rep me for my posts, not for the fact that i have a Pony as an Avatar.


  7. #7

    Default Re: Assyrian (or Babylonian) invasion of Greece

    That would be an awesome sub mod, maybe around 670 with the first Assyrian invasion of Egypt under Esarhaddon.

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    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Assyrian (or Babylonian) invasion of Greece

    Good idea. I'll bookmark this.


    Why did I bother to make such a post? Because Assyria is my passion. As is Phoenicia, NK Egypt and Persia. I love ancient middle eastern empires. And huge groups of ships.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Assyrian (or Babylonian) invasion of Greece

    Pretty cool 3 pt video about Assyrian warfare (not very long though)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhEG9jzCzz4

    Ashurbanipal reclining and enjoying a nice meal with queen and servants.... and the severed head of King Teumman of Elam!
    Last edited by Kitsunegari; November 08, 2011 at 12:33 PM.

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    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Assyrian (or Babylonian) invasion of Greece

    It's kinda detailed in my post, you know.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Assyrian (or Babylonian) invasion of Greece

    Yeah you went into more detail it has some cool visuals though

  12. #12
    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Assyrian (or Babylonian) invasion of Greece

    Of course, since I have no visuals. Just text.

    I'll probably add a couple of maps too, though. And maybe a relief here and there.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Assyrian (or Babylonian) invasion of Greece

    Quote Originally Posted by Blatta Optima Maxima View Post
    Yeah, for a short analysis that about does it.


    And no reps?
    I got you
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    Default Re: Assyrian (or Babylonian) invasion of Greece

    Here's an Osprey book on Assyrians with nice illustrations and some photos of reliefs, maybe i'll order it.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=Hod...ate%22&f=false

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    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Assyrian (or Babylonian) invasion of Greece

    It's my main source. It's a good read as well.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Assyrian (or Babylonian) invasion of Greece

    Quote Originally Posted by Blatta Optima Maxima View Post
    First of all, we must both agree that Babylonians are hardly eligible, since their armies were a far cry from the Assyrian ones. So we'll go with Assyrians.
    Hey stop hating on the Babylonians! You're probably right though.

    +rep indeed

  17. #17

    Default Re: Assyrian (or Babylonian) invasion of Greece

    I wonder how much of the Assyrian armies was composed of non-Mesopotamians when they began deploying for protracted war in both Elam and Egypt? The Assyrian heartland could only provide so much manpower (even though Nineveh was the largest city in the world) and Babylonia was usually recalcitrant if not outright rebellious. If things were still unsettled in Babylonia or Elam, they probably would have strong armed the Lydians and other Anatolian peoples into providing large contingents for an ambitious expedition like invading Greece, the ethnic Assyrians might have been outnumbered in the expeditionary army 4:1 or something like that, with most of them deployed against hereditary enemy Elam.

  18. #18
    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Assyrian (or Babylonian) invasion of Greece

    Elam was often crushed, even by rather minor forces. The field marshals with their combined 30k men could deal with any Elamite incursions.

    And yes, the Anatolians would indeed prove valuable auxiliaries, like Phrygian cav, Lydian and Karian infantry, Mysian skirmishers and Thracian light infantry.

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    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Assyrian (or Babylonian) invasion of Greece

    Added some eye-candy.

  20. #20
    DarthLazy's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Assyrian (or Babylonian) invasion of Greece

    That was and unnecessary .

    Put this in the Alternate history sub forum in the VV. I wanna see some rage
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Real imperialism is shown by Western apologists who are defending Ukraine's brutal occupation of Novorossija.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Sovereignty of Ukraine was recognized by Yeltsin and died with him.

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