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Thread: Is Shielwall useful attacking?

  1. #1
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Is Shielwall useful attacking?

    Great mod! one question? In this Mod Shieldwall is only defensive formation, or is a useful formation attacking the enemy?
    I for me use Schieldwall only to keep the line, in attack I prefer to disable it, and you?

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    Default Re: Is Shielwall useful attacking?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Great mod! one question? In this Mod Shieldwall is only defensive formation, or is a useful formation attacking the enemy?
    I for me use Schieldwall only to keep the line, in attack I prefer to disable it, and you?
    In attacking, you will take much less casualties but you will also deal less damage. That being said... Whether I'm attacking or defending I always create a shield wall. ALWAYS. It never fails me in a battle

    Proud mod leader, modeller and public relations officer of Heišinn Vešr: Total War


  3. #3

    Default Re: Is Shielwall useful attacking?

    If the combat has not swung your way yet, then you better keep a tight formation. On the other hand, your warriors move slower and are likely to get tired. Finally, I usually switch to a loose formation when the enemy forces rout and my warriors pursue them.

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    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Is Shielwall useful attacking?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Storm View Post
    In attacking, you will take much less casualties but you will also deal less damage. That being said... Whether I'm attacking or defending I always create a shield wall. ALWAYS. It never fails me in a battle
    Are you sure about casualities/damge thing? So is it like in RTW-BI?
    I attempted some battle-tests but they did not resolved my doubts.
    It's the slow movement speed, like Guilderstein said, the other aspect that I consider realistic but frustrating!

    I'll try to use S.W. in attack more frequently! Thanks!!

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    Default Re: Is Shielwall useful attacking?

    If there's a long distance between armies then i advance (at a walk) to just outside arrow distance, then form shieldwall and advance to within charge distance and break shieldwall and charge. Shieldwall will protect the men somewhat from archers/skirmishers but i usually have to weigh the fact that the longer the army takes the more damage they receive so if there are lots of ranged units then you might be better off legging it. Since i usually fight as the irish i use a line of skirmishers sometimes when attacking to try and draw the enemy onto the shieldwall, sometimes works but not against the irish since it just devolves into a skirmisher shoot-out/melee and then the rest of the armies engage as if the skirmishers weren't even in the battle.
    Were there but a tree in this godforsaken place i would have hanged myself.

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    Heathen Storm's Avatar Where's my axe?
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    Default Re: Is Shielwall useful attacking?

    One bad thing about shield wall is that once the enemy gets into your flanks, your men will drop like flies. The best thing to do is line up your men like this:
    ______
    with four or five units with shield wall ability so you have a straight line, and keep a couple of non-shield wall units on the side to protect their flank.

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    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Is Shielwall useful attacking?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Storm View Post
    One bad thing about shield wall is that once the enemy gets into your flanks, your men will drop like flies. The best thing to do is line up your men like this:
    ______
    with four or five units with shield wall ability so you have a straight line, and keep a couple of non-shield wall units on the side to protect their flank.
    But... this is from the X Files Series!!.....It is exactly the same formation that I'm using!!! (well that I'm trying to use! sometime OK, sometime Not! It all depends on the enemies!). My problem is that if I stand and fight, is functining, but when I move the line the problems begin: the flanks advancing too quikly in respect to the centre of the line, and the line of units in ShieldWall, in some way, losing solidarity, become a bit disorganized: against the Saxon Huskarls the situation slowly, become more and more dangerous!!
    Using Vikings, and if I have only few archers, I try everytime to reach the enemy line as quicly as I can, trying outflanking mouvements with medium or light troops but turning down Shieldwall, I want speed, more speed!

    My error is that, excluding cavalry units, I'm not able to use well the skirmishers in front of my line or on both flanks, but not only in this mod, is my not solved problem with all TW Games!

    I'll try Irish, when I'll finished to kill Saxons!!!

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    Default Re: Is Shielwall useful attacking?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    But... this is from the X Files Series!!.....It is exactly the same formation that I'm using!!! (well that I'm trying to use! sometime OK, sometime Not! It all depends on the enemies!). My problem is that if I stand and fight, is functining, but when I move the line the problems begin: the flanks advancing too quikly in respect to the centre of the line, and the line of units in ShieldWall, in some way, losing solidarity, become a bit disorganized: against the Saxon Huskarls the situation slowly, become more and more dangerous!!
    Using Vikings, and if I have only few archers, I try everytime to reach the enemy line as quicly as I can, trying outflanking mouvements with medium or light troops but turning down Shieldwall, I want speed, more speed!

    My error is that, excluding cavalry units, I'm not able to use well the skirmishers in front of my line or on both flanks, but not only in this mod, is my not solved problem with all TW Games!

    I'll try Irish, when I'll finished to kill Saxons!!!
    I'll show a picture of my favorite tactic

    EDIT:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Note my line of spearmen, with heavy (herklędi spearmen) in the middle and leidangr along the edges, with a unit of Vikingr and Leidangr guarding the edges. Archers in front, with heavy units (huskarls and berserkers) behind the line with the Hirdmenn behind them ready to stop any gap in the shield wall.
    Last edited by Heathen Storm; November 08, 2011 at 02:16 AM.

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    Default Re: Is Shielwall useful attacking?

    My setup is similar though i play on small just because i feel it's more accurate for most of the mods timeframe except the biggest battles which are equivalent to several armies on both sides.

    I usually have light infantry on the flank to protect it and also flank in turn as well as run down stragglers, mostly because the irish have few horses and cetheirne can outpace most medium / heavy infantry and kill them.
    Were there but a tree in this godforsaken place i would have hanged myself.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Is Shielwall useful attacking?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Great mod! one question? In this Mod Shieldwall is only defensive formation, or is a useful formation attacking the enemy?
    I for me use Schieldwall only to keep the line, in attack I prefer to disable it, and you?
    I always use this formation. Easy to maneuver, it automatically goes forward as a phalanx. You just need to watch out for the back, but a frontal attack as much as possible.

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    Default Re: Is Shielwall useful attacking?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin von Carstein View Post
    I always use this formation. Easy to maneuver, it automatically goes forward as a phalanx. You just need to watch out for the back, but a frontal attack as much as possible.
    Needs some micro management if you have none shieldwall units; the line can get a bit ragged. What's the film in your sig?
    Were there but a tree in this godforsaken place i would have hanged myself.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Is Shielwall useful attacking?

    the line can get a bit ragged
    It can be used by entering the chunking the reserves. Then he or she can tear yourself enemy lines and destroy him thus.

    What's the film in your sig?
    Warriors, "Attila".
    Last edited by Martin von Carstein; November 08, 2011 at 03:46 PM.

  13. #13
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Is Shielwall useful attacking?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Storm View Post
    I'll show a picture of my favorite tactic

    EDIT:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Note my line of spearmen, with heavy (herklędi spearmen) in the middle and leidangr along the edges, with a unit of Vikingr and Leidangr guarding the edges. Archers in front, with heavy units (huskarls and berserkers) behind the line with the Hirdmenn behind them ready to stop any gap in the shield wall.
    Vikings?..... No!.. these are Prussians!!
    Good, very good deployed battleline, the problem is, for my experience, keeping the formation compact while advancing!
    Because, if the line is disordered, the AI invariably try to exploit the gaps in the line, so like you show in the screenshot, is a very good practice keeping 4 or maybe 5 (with general) good reserve heavy units, at the rear of the formation, I found that these guys can make the difference!
    I, for me, keep the archers in the rear! when I try to use skirmishers in front-line after some time I forget about them and they are killed!Every time!
    I use large units size, but in reality small numbers are more historically accurate, but with Normans too small Cavalry units!

  14. #14

    Default Re: Is Shielwall useful attacking?

    Which "Attila" film was this? There are several on IMDB.

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    Default Re: Is Shielwall useful attacking?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Vikings?..... No!.. these are Prussians!!
    Good, very good deployed battleline, the problem is, for my experience, keeping the formation compact while advancing!
    Because, if the line is disordered, the AI invariably try to exploit the gaps in the line, so like you show in the screenshot, is a very good practice keeping 4 or maybe 5 (with general) good reserve heavy units, at the rear of the formation, I found that these guys can make the difference!
    I, for me, keep the archers in the rear! when I try to use skirmishers in front-line after some time I forget about them and they are killed!Every time!
    I use large units size, but in reality small numbers are more historically accurate, but with Normans too small Cavalry units!
    That's why you set them on guard mode, and DON'T ADVANCE! Shield walls are not meant to advance. Let the enemy come to you! That's what the shield wall was designed for

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    Default Re: Is Shielwall useful attacking?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Storm View Post
    That's why you set them on guard mode, and DON'T ADVANCE! Shield walls are not meant to advance. Let the enemy come to you! That's what the shield wall was designed for
    I just wish the boarsnout was in M2TW like in RTW and BI or was it just BI?

    Edit:
    It just occurs to me; would it be possible to apply the cavalry wedge to infantry? Though i didn't ever really find it that useful but with some heavy infantry it could break a shieldwall perhaps?

    Edit:
    It seems from what i've read that the wedge is cavalry only and can't be used for infantry.
    Last edited by smoesville; November 09, 2011 at 05:33 AM.
    Were there but a tree in this godforsaken place i would have hanged myself.

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    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Is Shielwall useful attacking?

    Quote Originally Posted by smoesville View Post
    I just wish the boarsnout was in M2TW like in RTW and BI or was it just BI?

    Edit:
    It just occurs to me; would it be possible to apply the cavalry wedge to infantry? Though i didn't ever really find it that useful but with some heavy infantry it could break a shieldwall perhaps?

    Edit:
    It seems from what i've read that the wedge is cavalry only and can't be used for infantry.
    On RTW-BI IBDF (Invasio Barbarorum Flagellun Dei)forums is explained a way to do someting similar with infantry , I used the system only few times and only in those Mods, is effective but require a lot of micro., and is useful only 'unit against unit' not for the entire line:
    (I'll try to explain but you be patient, I'm Italian and my English is terrible)

    1-Unit in Guard mode and Shieldwall, with narrow frontage like, in some, way a square. Here the point is that your unit must have narrower frontage than enemy unit.

    2-Duble clic on the rear of the enemy unit, that you want to penetrate.

    3-When your men are deep into the enemy unit (and they enter because, being in guard mode+SW, they are higly effective in the front, practically, in guard mode+SW, they fight exclusively on the front, not on the sides!):

    3a- Now your men being deep in: Toggle Guard mode and Shieldwall! here your men will start to kill the enemies in all the directions! It start the massacre!!!


    P.S. I used Late Romans Legionary, good statistics, good morale, good defences.
    I don't know if this system works in MIITW too. I must try in Cust.Battle and then see!

  18. #18
    smoesville's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Is Shielwall useful attacking?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    On RTW-BI IBDF (Invasio Barbarorum Flagellun Dei)forums is explained a way to do someting similar with infantry , I used the system only few times and only in those Mods, is effective but require a lot of micro., and is useful only 'unit against unit' not for the entire line:
    (I'll try to explain but you be patient, I'm Italian and my English is terrible)

    1-Unit in Guard mode and Shieldwall, with narrow frontage like, in some, way a square. Here the point is that your unit must have narrower frontage than enemy unit.

    2-Duble clic on the rear of the enemy unit, that you want to penetrate.

    3-When your men are deep into the enemy unit (and they enter because, being in guard mode+SW, they are higly effective in the front, practically, in guard mode+SW, they fight exclusively on the front, not on the sides!):

    3a- Now your men being deep in: Toggle Guard mode and Shieldwall! here your men will start to kill the enemies in all the directions! It start the massacre!!!


    P.S. I used Late Romans Legionary, good statistics, good morale, good defences.
    I don't know if this system works in MIITW too. I must try in Cust.Battle and then see!
    Yes! I used to use that with baktria in XGM, never used guard mode (in truth i've never used it in any of the TW games and i own most and have played all of them mostly because i didn't know what it did ). It was the only tactic that old-school hoplites could break up the phalangites with their longer sarissa. You are right about high-end units being used for this, i believe (if it still works as in RTW and BI) that the household troops would be best at this e.g. the irish bodyguard and nobles unit would be good for it so long as they only faced units of lesser status.
    Were there but a tree in this godforsaken place i would have hanged myself.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Is Shielwall useful attacking?

    This is done a lot in TATW with dwarves.

  20. #20
    Heathen Storm's Avatar Where's my axe?
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    Default Re: Is Shielwall useful attacking?

    Quote Originally Posted by smoesville View Post
    I just wish the boarsnout was in M2TW like in RTW and BI or was it just BI?

    Edit:
    It just occurs to me; would it be possible to apply the cavalry wedge to infantry? Though i didn't ever really find it that useful but with some heavy infantry it could break a shieldwall perhaps?

    Edit:
    It seems from what i've read that the wedge is cavalry only and can't be used for infantry.
    Trust me, I have inquired into this as well and it's not possible. It never was even possible in RTW/BI

    Proud mod leader, modeller and public relations officer of Heišinn Vešr: Total War


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