Latin Language during and after the Late Antiquity. Originally: Pronounciation of Aetius

[Diocle]

This tread is unexpectedly grown, from my initial question about the use of the Latin diphthong AE, with the contribute of many respectful forum members, especially precious that of Pseudo Romanus, now here we are speaking of Romance Filology, Late Latin and Voulgar, Geography, Politics and Sociology of the Transformation of the Old king the Latin, there are questions, answers, polemics..in short for me the diphtong AE no more depict the real contents of this tread.

So the question:NEW NAME FOR THE TREAD?

What do you think about? For me, to a new name must correspond, new contents, so I think that this tread may become a place in which all of us devoted to the Old King, as said Pseudo Romanus, could speak not only about Latin Language and its transformations, but also a place, like an ancient 'Hortus Romanus', a garden to rest, to learn, to read, to write about Latin, its culture , its world, its sounds, its music.
Here we could coltivate the Humanitas and the Classic Culture; here we will ever find the time to ear! 'Otium est auscultandi', away from the sounds of wars of this martial forum.

Have you any suggestion for the name?

[Valentinian Victor]

As I speak a little Spanish I know that Castallian Spanish pronounces 'V' as the English 'B'. I'm totally unclear whether 'J' is pronounced as the English 'J' or how it is pronounced in Spanish, which is a throaty sound which makes the work 'Jef' sound like 'Chief' as the letter 'E' also is pronounced slightly different in Spanish, as are the letters 'A' and 'I'.

And concerning the evolution in languages, Modern Spanish as spoken in Mexico has also now evolved to what is known as 'Slang Spanish', the Mexican's have dropped the use of many quirks of Spanish so that the Spanish for 'tomorrow' and 'Orange' are not pronouced the same in Mexico as they are in Spain, much to the dismay of the Spanish who feel their language is becoming bastardised.

[Diocle]

As I speak a little Spanish I know that Castallian Spanish pronounces 'V' as the English 'B'. I'm totally unclear whether 'J' is pronounced as the English 'J' or how it is pronounced in Spanish, which is a throaty sound which makes the work 'Jef' sound like 'Chief' as the letter 'E' also is pronounced slightly different in Spanish, as are the letters 'A' and 'I'.

And concerning the evolution in languages, Modern Spanish as spoken in Mexico has also now evolved to what is known as 'Slang Spanish', the Mexican's have dropped the use of many quirks of Spanish so that the Spanish for 'tomorrow' and 'Orange' are not pronouced the same in Mexico as they are in Spain, much to the dismay of the Spanish who feel their language is becoming bastardised.

Dear Valentinian, may I insert myself in this interesting debate about the use of the soud 'V' in Latin?
For me, as Italian, it refers to a particular and important aspect about the birth of the Italian language and the moment of transition from Latin to Italian, as to say from father to child. (no Joar, no ethnicism! I'm speaking of a cultural heritage, so no blood! But sounds! music!).

So, sorry Valentinian and all you good people, I'll annoy you, another time with an old text, very,very, old text, it is in fact of the VIII century a.D., it was discoverd by professor Schiapparelli in the year 1924 in the city of Verona in Veneto, the city of Romeo and Juliet in the land in which Virgilius was born and of which he spoke in the Bucoliche: the name of this singoular text is "Indovinello Veronese" (En.: "Veronese Riddle"), It is a short and simple text, few lines written on the margin of a parchment by a monk probably in a moment of pause during his work of copying down the Codex in which it was found (LXXX 89 of the Biblioteca Capitolare of Verona), this is a quite interesting aspect of the text: It is not an Official text, it is like a joke of a simple copyst monk, so the language we read is not Official but Voulgar, it is the language speaken by the VIII century Italian people.
Sorry, really, I do not want to offend anyone of you good and respectful English-speakers members of this English -Speaker Forum but this Language is the Italian Language!


Indovinello Veronese (Veronese Riddle)

ALBA PAREBA BOVES
ALBA PRATALIA ARABA................... Italian: ARAVA.........English sound 'v' like in 'very'
ALBO VERSORIO TENEBA................. Italian: TENEVA
NEGRO SEMEN SEMINABA................ Italian: SEMINAVA
.
English translation:
In front of him (he) led oxen
white fields (he) plowed
A white plow (he) held
a black seed (he) sowed

Obviouly the joke is clear: the person is the writer himself (the monk), whose fingers (pair of oxen), draw a white feather across the page (the white fields) leaving blak ink marks (blak seed).

Why is it important, very important? Because it is no more Latin, the text is the first text written in Italian Voulgar in the VIII century,the Langobardic Kingdom was just felt and Italy was under Frank rule.
We can say that this text is not Latin for some important reasons, in short:
Italian: 'Albo versorio' is the Latin: 'Album Vrersorium'
Italian: 'Negro Semen' is the Latin: 'Nigrum Semen'
Italian: 'Paraba' is the Latin: 'Parabat'
Italian: 'Araba' is the Latin 'Arabat'
Italian: 'Teneba' is the Latin 'Tenebat'
Italian: 'Seminaba' is the Latin 'Seminabat'

What happened here? The words meaning, passing from Latin to Italian Voulagar, are the same, in the today Veronese dialect 'Versorio' and 'parar'are the words for plow and push, the words are very similar, what changes is that in Italian they lose the final terminations, in simple words, we could say that here we are passing from the inflective and synthetic Latin Language (composed of Cases and Gendres) to the Italian more analytic Language.

In conclusion: my suggestion about the sound of the Latin 'V' is to adopt the sound of the Italian 'V' or the English 'V' like in very, about the suggestion of Valentinian about the 'B' obviously I have nothing to add.

P.S.: Today someone suggests that this text may be considered a form of Latin Voulgar, what I learnt is that this text is the first form of true Italian language, today seem prevail the italian party but the question may be debatable, for me, I'm anyway happy! the difficulty to indicate the real language used in this important text confirm the subtle distinction between Latin and Italian and the suggestion that we Romance speakers speak Latin!!!
Vale!

[PSEUDO ROMANUS]

As I speak a little Spanish I know that Castallian Spanish pronounces 'V' as the English 'B'. I'm totally unclear whether 'J' is pronounced as the English 'J' or how it is pronounced in Spanish, which is a throaty sound which makes the work 'Jef' sound like 'Chief' as the letter 'E' also is pronounced slightly different in Spanish, as are the letters 'A' and 'I'.

And concerning the evolution in languages, Modern Spanish as spoken in Mexico has also now evolved to what is known as 'Slang Spanish', the Mexican's have dropped the use of many quirks of Spanish so that the Spanish for 'tomorrow' and 'Orange' are not pronouced the same in Mexico as they are in Spain, much to the dismay of the Spanish who feel their language is becoming bastardised.

So you speak Spanish! That's great .
Are you asking the way to pronounce 'J' in Latin? If so, I'd say it sounded more like the English diphthong 'EE' or 'I' in the word machine. Just in some regions in Hispania the grapheme 'J' which had always used to represent the long 'I' (English E) sound experienced a consonantization process that eventually (long after the fall of the WRE) gave birth to the modern Spanish sound of the letter 'J'. Once again, I'm summarizing the process as much as I can since I don't want to bother you with a lecture on Spanish phonetics .
On the Spanish from Mexico, I'm not sure I'm following you. They certainly have many regionalisms but overall, IMHO, is very standard. The same can't be said, of course, of the 'Spanish' spoken in the USA which is a hybrid, a mixture of Spanish and English.
On the Spanish for 'tomorrow' and ' orange', could you clarify if that difference in pronunciation you mention is more of an intonation thing than anything else, please? I'm asking because I have been analyzing those words since I read your post and I have failed miserably in finding any remarkable phonetic differences .
BTW, I think that saying the Spanish J letter sounds a little harder than the English H would be a more accurate description.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

I speak enough spanish to ask for a pencil. And enough Latin to buy beer and get laid

[Gen.jamesWolfe]

I speak enough spanish to ask for a pencil. And enough Latin to buy beer and get laid

the best knowledge of latin possible

[Diocle]

the best knowledge of latin possible

For you!...SUNT QUI CONTRA DISPUTANT!.......

[Diocle]

When Pseudo Romanus speaks about Latin and his transformation we must only listen, learn and say a big thank you!
Thanks Pseudo Romanus your posts are invaluable!

What can I add to the explanation of Pseudo Romanus?
Nothing only a game:

Speaking of evolution of the Latin, and trying only to advance a suggestion about why we, belonging to the various Romance cultures, fell this old language still alive in our heart and mind, I'll propouse a sort of game, I'll write down a text, I'll not explain what is it, who did write this text, when was this text written and the most important what is the language spoken in this text, a great part of you guys will immediatly identify this document, to the others I'll say that is quite important for the birth of the Romance Languages, so these are the questions:

What is this strange Language? Late Latin? French? Italian Voulgar? Spanish?

When this document was written?

What is this document?

and more important question:
Do you understand the content or the mining of this text?

I can understand the content and the mining of this text!

When the first time, some (?) years ago, I read it, I tohught: "But...what's this?... it sound in some parts exactly like my grandmother speaking in her Alpin Piedmontese dialect half French half Italian!!".
I suggest you this funny and in some way ingenuos game, only to explain in a direct and simple form why the slow evolution of Latin in the Romance cultures and then the birth of the national Romance Languages are phenomenon characterized by a strong historical, cultural, geographical continuity, and in the end why, we Romance speakers, say that we are speaking the XXI c. Latin and why we say that the Latin is still alive!

Here the test:

" Pro Deo amur et pro christian poblo et nostro commun salvament, d'ist di in avant, in quant Deus savir et podir me dunat, si salvarai eo cist meon fradre Karlo, et in aiudha et in cadhuna cosa, si cum om per dreit son fradra salvar dift, in o quid il mi altresi fazet, et ab Ludher nul plaid nunqua'm prindrai, qui, meon vol, cist meon fradre Karle in damno sit.

Si Lodhuvigs sgrament, que son fradre Karlo jurat, conservat, et karlus, meos sendra, de suo part non lo's tanit, si io returnar non l'int pois, ne io ne neuls cui eo returnar int pois, in nulla aiudha contra Lodhuvig nun li iv er."

I think it is time to add the text that I transcribed the second part, yes, because this mysterious document consists of two parts with, word for word, identical content, and this is the most important aspect, in my opinion: one version was aimed at people who could not understand the content of the other, here we are facing a real aknowledgment of the existence of a language barrier.

I hope that among those who will read the second part of the document, the English speakers, the Germans, the Swedish or other descendants of ancient german culture, this time will be easier to understand what the Ancient Document tell us, at least the sounds of the words will awake echoes and meanings: This was exactly the purpose for which I wonted to introduce you to this ingenuos game, even if the words and the sounds of the languages change over the course of history, certain phonetic structures, the language music, in my opinion remain in our cultures as a sort of 'Long Duration History'.

So here the second part:
I don't understand this second text and you?

"In Godes minna ind in thes christianes folches ind unser bedhero gehaltnissi, fon thesemo dage frammordes, so fram so mir Got gewizci indi madh furgibit, so hald ih thesan minan bruodher, soso man mit rehtu sinan bruodher scal, in thiu thaz er mig so sama duo, indi mit Ludheren in nohheiniu thing ne gegango, the, minan willon, imo ce scadhen werdhen.

Oba Karl then eid then er sinemo bruodher Ludhuwige gesuor geleistit, indi Ludhwig, min herro, then er imo gesuor forbrihchit, ob ih inan es irwenden ne mag, noh ih noh thero nohhein, then ih es irwenden mag, windhar Karle imo ce follusti ne wirdhit."


In the future I will conclude this little experiment explaining the content of this text, the languages spoken in it, the date and the occasion in which was written and the purpose that its authors had in producing this duble version. If anyone, before that time, interested in this text, could express his opinions or knowledge about it, would be a nice opportunity to give new contents to this strange tread.
The questions are the same: Which are the Languages used in these texts?
When these texts were written and by whom?
Which of the two versions contains words more understandable or sounds closer to your modern national languages?

[Diocle]

As higly probable, my ingenuous game had no answers!
Well! Now, I'll use this last post to answer the questions left unanswered, to explain what I meant with this tread, and finally to put an epitaph on this strange discussion worthy to recive the dust of time.


The year is 842 AD, more precisely: 14 february 842 a.D.

This document is called: Serments de Strasbourg. (En.: Oaths of Strasbourg).

That day, in the old Roman town of Argentoratae, now Strasbourg, two brothers kings, Charles the Bald, ruler of the West Franks and Louis the German, ruler of the East Franks, descendants of Charlemagne, in the presence of their armies, swore mutual fidelity against the third brother which were at war, Lothair, Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire and ruler of the Middle Franks.
Each of the two, pronounced the otah in the language of the other, each in a way that is understandable to the other soldiers. Then their armies took their oaths, each in their own language.

The story and these facts are narrated by Nithard, author of the Historiarum libri IIII in the single manuscript, "De dissensionibus filiorum Ludovicii Pii" in the Biblioteque Nationale de Paris.

Nithard, describe what happened with these words:
'Cumque Karolus Haec verba romana lingua perorasset,Lodhuvicus, quoniam major natu erat, prior haec deinde se servaturum testatus est:'
En.: 'Once Charles had finished off the speech, with the same words in Romance ,Louis, since, he was the elder, awore allegiance first:'

"Pro deo amur et pro christian poblo et nostro commun salvament, d'ist di in avant, in quant deus savir et podir me dunat, si salvarai eo cist meon fradre Karlo, et in aiudha et in cadhuna cosa, si cum om per dreit son fradre salvir dift, in o quid il mi altresi fzet, et ab Ludher nul plaid nunqua'm prindrai, qui, meon vol, cist meon fradre Karle in damno sit."

For English speakers who cannot understand the text (as I said I can understand the text):
En.: 'For the love of the God and for Christedom and our common salvation, from this day onwards, as god will give me the winsdom and power, I shall protect this brother of mine Charles, with aid or anything else, as one ought to protect one's brother, so that he may do the same for me, and I shall never knowingly,make any covenant with Lothair that would harm this brother of mine Charles.'

When Louis the German had finished, Charles swore with the very same words in the German Vernacular (High Old German Language).You can see the text in the previous posts.

Then, Nithard, continues the narration:
'Sacramentum autem quod utrumque populos, quique propria lingua, testatus est, romana lingua sic se habet:'
En.: 'The oath of the two people (assembled armies) then swore in their respective languages is, in Romance, as follows:'

"Si Lodhuvigs sagrament, que son fradre karlo jurat, conservat, et Karlus, meos sendra, de suo part non lo's tanit, si io returnar non l'int pois, ne io ne neuls cui eo rturnar int pois, in nulla aiudha contra Lodhuvig nun li iv er."

En.: If Louis keep the oath that he has sworn and Charles, my lord,on the other hand breaks it, and I cannot dissuade him from it , neither I nor anyone that I can dissuade from it, than I shall not help him in any way against Louis.'

The soldiers of Louis the Bald swore in High Old German using exactly the same words. As said you can read the German in previous posts.

Nithard tells us that, when the cerimony of the oath was completed, the two brother and their armies divided, Louis left for Worms along the Rhine via Speyer, and Charles along the Vosges via Wissenbourg.



What tells us this document? (besides the fact that the Continental Europeans like to spend thir time in Strasbourg, exchanging vows, which then, regularly, they don't keep)

-In these text we can find 3 languages: The Latin of Nithard, the Romance of Charles and West Franks, the Verancular German of Louis with his Eastern Franks.
The old Latin Language is now a curial and official language, it is crystallized in religious texts, but it is not spoken by the people.
The people on the West of the Rhine continues to use the Spoken Latin or Voulgar Latin, the language spoken by common people for many centuries. Now this Language assumes a new dignity, for the first time and for political reasons, the Voulgar Latin spoken in the Gaul is transcripted in an official document, this day marks the birth of a wonderful new language, the Voulgar French.
The third languge the High Old German, is on the right bank of the Rhine, it is a completely separate and indipendent language from the old Latin.
The last utopia of an United Christian Empire under the rule of the Charolingian dinasty, heir of the Roman Empire, now dissolves: the Romance Franks don't understand the language of the Eastern Franks. This language barrier still exists today.

-Right around the time of the Oath of Strasbourg, in the most intensely Romanized European regions, born the National Voulgar Romance Languages, in addition to France, in Italy and in the Iberian Peninsula. Perhaps the will of Charlemagne to fix, in rigid formulas, the Latin used by the Clergy, promotes the process of detachment of the Spoken Latin Languages from the written Curial Latin of the Church.
But the texts like the 'Oath of Strasbourg' are only like 'screenshots', taken during the slow evolutionary process of the Spoken Latin, which began with the Romanization of Western Europe and is still in progress.
The Romance Languages are only the transcription of the Spoken Latin set in a precise moment and in a determined geographical area during its historical development.


MY CONCLUSIONS:

- The Latin Language is a living language, it is spoken by 60 milions of French, by 46 milions of Spanish, by 60 milions of Italians, by 10 milions of Portugueses, by 20 milions of Romanians, so only in Europe Latin is spoken by something like 225 milions of persons! Who tells us that the Latin Language is a deth language, is lying, I don't know if he is lying in ignorance or if he's lying for some ideological reason, one thing for sure: He is lying!

- We can imagine how to pronounce the Latin Language. Someone tells us that we cannot say how to pronounce the Latin: he is wrong! or at least in part wrong, his statement is too categorical: To start , we can say definitely how it should not be pronounced: The Latin should not be pronounced like the English, like the Swedish, Danish and all the other magnificent Germanic Languages, if we can understand only one small thing from Documents like the Oath of Strasbourg is that Germans cannot understand, without a specific study, a single Latin word or sound! said that, why to reject, a priori, the suggestion of trying to use the sounds of the Romance Languages? If, as we saw in this document, the Romance languages are directly derived from the Latin, why to refuse using their sounds, why refuse the evidence? Ignorance? Some demential ideology? Again I do not know!! Looking at the history of the evolution of the Romance Languages directly from the Spoken Latin, being themselves Spoken Latin, I think we can safely affirm that the Romance pronounce of the Latin Language is the best! or the least worse!

- I think that everyone is free to pronounce the Latin Language or any other language exactly as he wants! only one thing: if you pronunce the Latin with the English sounds, you'll get a new Fantasy Language, the Fantasy Latin, maybe it is a funny experience but the real Latin Language is another thing, the poor Language of Cicero, Seneca, Lucretius, Catullus, Oratius, Virgilius, Cato, Tacitus and many other really deserve this? Try to respect these men, their works and their culture!

- I find foolish to deny, rejecting the correct Romance pronunciation of the Latin, the cultural (No, not ethnic!) heritage of the Romance Languages!
If the increasing amount of white hairs on my head, taught me something, it is this: It is not closing ourselves to other cultures that we'll build the future of this continent or that of the rest of the world! Not recognising the cultural heritage to a people is like to consider it as dead, a people that does not exist! A people that has not a past what future can have? This refusal, is ethnicity! The worse form of ethnicity that I can imagine!
If we refuse the evidence of the different cultural (No! not ethnic!) origins we'll not build a better form of mutual coexistence. For me a new European culture can only be created if the different cultural origins of the European peoples will become an opportunity to grow the common spiritual wealth!

[Deutschland]

The Latin diphtong ae was pronounced separately in pre-Christian times. Startin in the second century ae was pronouced together in Western Europe.

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

Here we go again . . .

[PSEUDO ROMANUS]

Here we go again . . .

[Diocle]

No SBH do not be afraid please!!
I'll find something good to smoke, I'll take a good drink (Cognac? Vin Santo?, Marsala?... we will see!), then I'll continue reading the last Simenon book I bought, and maybe I'll tray to finish the reading of Strategikon (I now have a new and the only Italian edition), then I'll continue my architectural drawings, or maybe I'll take a good walk with my beloved woman, in the mountains, here in Liguria this November is wonderful!... it is a so beautiful thing, looking at the sea from the mountains in winter.........so no SBH! do not be afraid, I jet said what I had to say, if the people concur with my suggestions well, I'll happy, if not.......OK! speak Latin as you like, barbarians! It is, in any case, a great thing if there is someone here interested in our old, dear, Latin Language!

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

No, Diocle, the comment wasn't directed at you! Have no fear! I was merely sighing at Deutschland's post.

[Diocle]

I know, I know! SBH, dear friend! Sorry if I used your post for declaring my unilatreral disengagement!

[Renatus]

No, Diocle, the comment wasn't directed at you! Have no fear! I was merely sighing at Deutschland's post.

What's wrong with Deutschland's post? It's more to the point of this thread than some of the stuff we've had.

[Diocle]

Renatus, only one time, could you be more explicit please? try to be clear stating your valuable thoughts directly to those affected by your ambiguous insinuations? I think beig explicit is a noble quality for an honest man!
Do you refer to me? Do you think my opinions are wrong? Do you think I wrote something out of place or false? I wasn't well documented? Do you have something more to add? Why do you refuse to speak in a more open way? If your critics are correct, and in these years I never read one of your posts less than correct, would be a precious contribute to this tread!
I honestly was hoping that persons with good and interesting suggestions would partecipate to this tread, but nothing! for three weeks nothing, and now you appear and what you say? '..It's more to the point of this tread than some other stuff we've had.' Well..and then? do you want to clarify your toughts, explain your opinions? No?... Why not?.....Do you have some opinion? Yes? No? Speak clearly please, and try to be well educated and speak directly to the person you are talking about!
Strange!.............. it seem reading some pages of Leonardo Siascia about Sicily, and, maybe, I'm speaking with an englishman!

MALA TEMPORA CURRUNT!

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

It opened a can of worms that has already been opened here. It added nothing new and also didn't quote any sources to develop his opinion. That kind of statement in a thread like this alomst guarantess more spamming. That was why I indicated that yet another round of fruitless debate was about to begin.

[Diocle]

It opened a can of worms that has already been opened here. It added nothing new and also didn't quote any sources to develop his opinion. That kind of statement in a thread like this alomst guarantess more spamming. That was why I indicated that yet another round of fruitless debate was about to begin.

My dear SBH, for me, your posts are ever wise, educated and intelligent.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

... I can't believe you're still arguing about this ...

I never meant the question as a troll but it's just seemed like it turned into one...