Latin Language during and after the Late Antiquity. Originally: Pronounciation of Aetius

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

I don't understand...

[Diocle]

Never mind the pronunciation, MMFA (I'm with Joar on that, by the way). Why is your profile on RAT different from everyone else's?

So, do you belive that Cicero pronouced his perfect Latin like a modern Swedish? Really? It is incredible!!!!and funny!!!!!!!!!!
MALA TEMPORA CURRUNT!

[Renatus]

I've sent you a message about this on RAT but, briefly, if you compare your profile with mine or others, they are not the same format.

[Renatus]

So, do you belive that Cicero pronouced his perfect Latin like a modern Swedish? Really? It is incredible!!!!and funny!!!!!!!!!!
MALA TEMPORA CURRUNT!

Well, how would you say Cicero pronounced a word like principia?

[Diocle]

I've sent you a message about this on RAT but, briefly, if you compare your profile with mine or others, they are not the same format.

Here we are talking about the great Latin language and how Latin must be pronounced, or at least this is what I tought, not about some nice Internet Forum or about profiles or how is my forum profile (which is obviously low, I'm Italian speaker an my english isn't good, so..).
This is a great games forum in which there are some beautiful persons with great gaming experiance and great creativity! But I did not think that these things can change the reality about Latin language and how it must be pronounced!

Cicero pronounced the word "Principia" exactly like here in Italy we pronounce the word "Principio", I should use the Phonetics from Italian to English and then from English to Latin for explaining you what was the correct sound of a Latin/Italian word? But... ehi guy! Do you hate me?

OK then! I'll try: PRINCIPIA :

'I' like in English 'hit' or 'pity'

'C' like in English 'church'

'A' like in English 'after' or 'car' or 'calm'

My keyboard obviously is that of an Italian machine, so I cannot express the correct phonetic trascription, it would be very, very easier in that way!!!!!
Now for you: try to pronounce clearly this Italian simple and beautiful verse of Francesco Petrarca (XIV c. Italian great poet):

" ....Chiare, fresche, dolci acque... "

Learn how to pronouce these simple words, and you'll find the sound of ancient Latin language.
I think that this is a gaming forum, with some funny historical contents, keep it like it is, the linguistical problems are a very serious matter, I tought that you English speakers would be interested by some notes about the correct Latin spell from Italy (do you Know?... Roma...) but if you aren't,.... well no problem!.... The life continues!

[Renatus]

Cicero pronounced the word "Principia" exactly like here in Italy we pronounce the word "Principio", I should use the Phonetics from Italian to English and then from English to Latin for explaining you what was the correct sound of a Latin/Italian word? But... ehi guy! Do you hate me?

No, I don't hate you but I do think that sometimes you are too dogmatic for your own good.

To get back to pronunciation, I suspect that what we are really arguing about are the conventions by which different nationalities teach Latin. In England, we are taught that the Latin c is hard. Thus, principia would be pronounced 'prinkipia'. If I understand you correctly, in Italy you follow the example of the Roman Catholic church and pronounce it 'princhipia'. The truth is that neither of us was there and we have to accept what we are told by those who have studied linguistics more thoroughly than we have. We have also to accept that, over time, pronunciation will change, even within the same language. English is not the same now as it was in the time of Shakespeare nor, I suspect, is Italian spoken as it was by the Borgias.

Getting further back to the pronunciation of Aëtius, the best way to judge this is to see how it was transliterated into Greek. Both Zosimus and Malalas adopt the accentuation cited by Joar in his post #7. Thus, it would seem that the apparent diphthong should be ignored and the e sounded separately.

[Diocle]

No, I don't hate you but I do think that sometimes you are too dogmatic for your own good.

To get back to pronunciation, I suspect that what we are really arguing about are the conventions by which different nationalities teach Latin. In England, we are taught that the Latin c is hard. Thus, principia would be pronounced 'prinkipia'. If I understand you correctly, in Italy you follow the example of the Roman Catholic church and pronounce it 'princhipia'. The truth is that neither of us was there and we have to accept what we are told by those who have studied linguistics more thoroughly than we have. We have also to accept that, over time, pronunciation will change, even within the same language. English is not the same now as it was in the time of Shakespeare nor, I suspect, is Italian spoken as it was by the Borgias.

Getting further back to the pronunciation of Aëtius, the best way to judge this is to see how it was transliterated into Greek. Both Zosimus and Malalas adopt the accentuation cited by Joar in his post #8. Thus, it would seem that the apparent diphthong should be ignored and the e sounded separately.

I agree with you! but if I wish I learn how the ancient Anglo-Saxons pronounced the magnificent poem Beowulf then the best thing that I could do would be ask to an Englishman, better if with some knowledge of the Ancient anglosaxon literature/language, in this case ask the same thing to an italian speaker would be foolish! Why is not the same for Latin/Italian? Why the english pronunciation of Latin should be better than the spell of an Italian teacher? (I was born in 1963 in that ancient age in Italy the Latin teachers were really harsh people, do you Know Pit-Bull? OK the same thing!)
Here in question enter a problem of Linguistic Democracy, English is the Interanational accepted Language and this is OK, but for me the Anglosaxon culture is only one, and not the most important, culture in the world.
About Aetius and Zosimus yes your observations are true, but Aetius was in the west, was the Last Romanorum and in the west the Latin was the main language, so about this I must disagree with you, but ehi, only about this and this is a good thing!

[total war lover]

Now I'll try to be clear!

Two eventualities:

1) If you are speaking of the international use of the dieresis as phonetic sign in various languages, Yes I totally agree with you! The vocals with dieresis must be pronounced separated as you said!

2) But, if you, a Swedish (or not? Maybe I'm wrong, if so, sorry!), trys to teach me, an Italian, how my ancestors pronunced Latin: No, no and NO!

Sorry Joar, I'm following your work and your posts here from years, they are great and I think you are the best person in the world! But please do not theach me how to pronounce Latin words!

So I'll repeat: the Latin diphthong AE must be pronounced like in English 'sent' or 'tent'.

IMPORTANT: the Latin language do not uses the dieresis

Pure lies. it's not supposed to be pronounced as an "e". In the Middle Ages the original pronounciation was changed to the ed up version

[Diocle]

Pure lies. it's not supposed to be pronounced as an "e". In the Middle Ages the original pronounciation was changed to the ed up version

Who cares if it was changed in M.Ages!
Here we are speaking about the way in which the Latin diphthong AE must be pronounced, and don't use the words "Pure lies" is not a polite way to tell someone what you think about his argouments!

( translated in Italian: "Ma tu chi c.o sei per dare a qualcuno del bugiardo?")

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

A little off-topic perhaps? Although seeing as MMFA did not actually open a discussion as such with his thread - I am perhaps scratching my head here and wondering what the topic actually is (other than MMFA simply advertising his presence on another forum . . .)?

[Valentinian Victor]

I've brought myself out of my TWC 'retirement' to make a quick comment on some aspects of this thread.

I cannot let Latin pronounciation pass because its no use telling people how words in Latin should sound as we have no idea whatsoever how Latin was spoken BECAUSE IT IS A DEAD LANGUAGE! Every decent Latin scholar should be able to tell you this fact. Professor John Warry told me this pertinent fact at one of his lectures years ago when there was a debate on how some Latin military words should be pronounced. We have some clues at to how Latin may have sounded in the modern Spanish and Italian languages, but they have undergone so many changes due to the influences of those who settled in those countries since the collapse of the Western Roman empire that all we can say is that we hear faint echoes of Latin sounds in those languages.

[Joar]

As SeniorBatavianHorse has already pointed out, this debate has nothing to do with the original subject of the thread. Therefore I've opened up this new thread were everyone can continue the discussion, if they like. Diocle's first post now serves as the "opening post of the thread". Continue!

[Diocle]

I've brought myself out of my TWC 'retirement' to make a quick comment on some aspects of this thread.

I cannot let Latin pronounciation pass because its no use telling people how words in Latin should sound as we have no idea whatsoever how Latin was spoken BECAUSE IT IS A DEAD LANGUAGE! Every decent Latin scholar should be able to tell you this fact. Professor John Warry told me this pertinent fact at one of his lectures years ago when there was a debate on how some Latin military words should be pronounced. We have some clues at to how Latin may have sounded in the modern Spanish and Italian languages, but they have undergone so many changes due to the influences of those who settled in those countries since the collapse of the Western Roman empire that all we can say is that we hear faint echoes of Latin sounds in those languages.

The English pronounciation is obiviously the worse! with all those strange consonant and so few vocals, how can an english speaker try to reproduce the true soud of Latin? the opinion of a rspectable professor don't change the fact that the academic world in Italy substain exactly the opposite: we speak the XXI c. Latin.
The last test (some 10 years old) on the italian people based on blood analisis gave the results that the modern Italians have the same ethnical structure of the roman Iron Age: Celto-Germanic in the North (Lombardia, Liguria, Veneto, Emilia...), Italics in the Centre (Lazio, Toscana, Umbria...), Greeks in the South (Calabria, Puglia, Sicilia.......) this because the Italian mainland apart Longobardi and Fanks in the north remained quite isolated from the rest of continent without great movements of people.
I for me stop here, i'm Italian and this is an English speaking Forum so I'm one you are many, and this is rigth but I cannot conduct a so desperate battle alone (Yes the desperate battles are the only ones which are worth fighting but this is true for other more serious battles!), so continue belive that the best pronuciation of a language born in my country, Italy, 2700 years ago, in the middle of the Mediterranean sea, is that of the inhabitants of an isle in the Atlantic on the far north of Europe.
In the end is so funny to ear the Latin pronounced by english people!
At this point I cannot be sorry for my bad English!
P.S. Ehi I didn't think to find a so great linguistic nationalism here!

[First Citizen Gallienus]

so about this I must disagree with you, but ehi, only about this and this is a good thing!

Pardon me, but what is that word I underlined?

[Diocle]

Pardon me, but what is that word I underlined?

A mispelled exclamation? An Italian exclamation? A sign of incoming insanity due to the age? A joke? to you the choice!
But was it so important in the context of my post?

[Joar]

I didn't think to find a so great linguistic nationalism here!

The only one who's using "nationalistic linguistic" here is you. You're suggesting that just because you live in Italy, your interpretation is somehow more valid. That kind of argumentation is not only highly outdated, but also rather offensive. You're also misunderstanding the point several of us are trying to make, namely:

1. No one can tell how Latin sounded back in the day, and that goes for all languages. For example, I'm a Swede, but it doesn't mean that I know how my ancestor's language sounded 2000 years ago. Languages evolve.

2. All I was trying to explain was the use of ¨. That's all. Please try to understand that.

Now I advice you to stop using ethnicity as an argument in this discussion. I also like to say that nobody here is out to get you, or try to make you look bad, on the contrary, you're very welcome here. We have a long history of dicussion and debate here at the IB forums, and it is a good thing to be passionate about your interests, but we must all try to be respectful to each other.

[First Citizen Gallienus]

A mispelled exclamation? An Italian exclamation? A sign of incoming insanity due to the age? A joke? to you the choice!
But was it so important in the context of my post?

Its important if you want us to understand what you're saying. I'm not trying to be rude or anything.

[Diocle]

The only one who's using "nationalistic linguistic" here is you. You're suggesting that just because you live in Italy, your interpretation is somehow more valid. That kind of argumentation is not only highly outdated, but also rather offensive. You're also misunderstanding the point several of us are trying to make, namely:

1. No one can tell how Latin sounded back in the day, and that goes for all languages. For example, I'm a Swede, but it doesn't mean that I know how my ancestor's language sounded 2000 years ago. Languages evolve.

2. All I was trying to explain was the use of ¨. That's all. Please try to understand that.

Now I advice you to stop using ethnicity as an argument in this discussion. I also like to say that nobody here is out to get you, or try to make you look bad, on the contrary, you're very welcome here. We have a long history of dicussion and debate here at the IB forums, and it is a good thing to be passionate about your interests, but we must all try to be respectful to each other.

If you read again, maybe more carfully, my precedent posts, I declared that I stopped, for my part, this discussion!

Only a truly not polemical observation Joar: In the opening of your post you answer to some of my assertions, giving your opinions, and your opinions are important here because you speaks as Moderator, then you make the corrept exemple of your country to explain your argoument, and this is your right as respectful forum member! but then, as Moderator, you advice me to stop using ethnicity as an argument and this is your rigth, but at this point I could not answer to your argument because I would be in contrast with your advice! But fortunately, for me, I stopped this this debate, for my part, before your advise, so there is no need for me to respond to the opinions (which I do not condivide) that you exprime in the opening of your post!
To be clear! I'm not questioning your operate as Moderator!
For me, what you say as Moderator is law! But what you say as Joar is higly questionable, only in this debate of course!

LEX DURA LEX SED LEX!

I forgot to say that I hate, politicaly hate, the concept or the use of ethnicity as argument in any kind of discussion!

[PSEUDO ROMANUS]

2) But, if you, a Swedish (or not? Maybe I'm wrong, if so, sorry!), trys to teach me, an Italian, how my ancestors pronunced Latin: No, no and NO!

May I respectfully ask why? I truly believe that knowledge is not linked to ancestry, ethnic grouping or anything of the kind. However, like you I’m sure I believe that the phonetics of certain Romance languages (especially Italian, Spanish and Romanian) and Slavic ones play an advantage for their speakers when they want to pronounce Latin words .

As far as I know everybody is right regarding the pronunciation of the AE diphthong depending on the time frame. The traditional AE sound that everybody knows corresponds to the Kingdom and Early Republican era. The change into the E sound that Diocle so appropriately claims, due maybe to the influence of Volscian and Faliscan, took place after those years and may have been completed in Republican times but just on unaccented syllables. The occurrence on accented syllables took place from the first century of our era on. This is just a simplification of the phonetic evolution of the language, of course, as I’m not taking into consideration regionalisms and the difference of use between the elite and the people.
In summary, everybody was right about how to pronounce the AE diphthong, but regarding the correct pronunciation of Aetius’ name, my humble opinion is that Diocle’s proposal is more accurate.

[Joar]

For me, what you say as Moderator is law!

That should certainly not be the case. I am bound by the same rules as you, and I'm only a member just as you, only I have some local moderating abilities. My advice to you, to stop use race as a base of argument, was only that, an advice. And it was not done in my role as moderator.

And when it comes to the debate about Aëtius name, I have, at this time, said all I wanted to say.