[Faction Research] Kingdom of Ù'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

[Tigernams]

Losing is not really an achivement in all honesty, bringing edward the bruce in and then swearing fealty to a foriegn king isnt really an achievement either. As you said 16th century is past out time frame of the early campaign.

Yes, but at the mods start date Brian hasnt lost yet and the O'Neills are very much in the ascendancy. Your also underestimating the importance of being elected High King by two of the most powerful pre-norman dynasties (the o'brians and the o'connors)

The Mac Carthy gains didnt last that long either, outside their core territory, and they too supported Edward, at least nominally if not actually in the field.

[David93]

Yes, but at the mods start date Brian hasnt lost yet and the O'Neills are very much in the ascendancy. Your also underestimating the importance of being elected High King by two of the most powerful pre-norman dynasties (the o'brians and the o'connors)
Can you give me a source on that?
but as you said at the start of the mod Brians not "high king" iirc hes not leader of the O'Neills either, although im not sure on that.
The Mac Carthy gains didnt last that long either, outside their core territory, and they too supported Edward, at least nominally if not actually in the field.

But the Mac Carthys did indeed maintain gains after there conquests.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Mac William de Burgo accompanied by a great army of foreigners and Gaedhil invaded Desmumu, and Cormac Mac Carthaigh was slain by them after a victory of prowess and valour. For he himself unaided, slew Gerald Roche,76 a great and noble knight, and another good squire, and no others of the Desmumu fell save he, although many of the (enemy) army were slain. Nevertheless, some of the Clann Charthaigh gave hostages to Mac William and he left the country.

The account in the Annals of Loch Cé differs slightly from the above:

A.D. 1262. A hosting by Mac William Burk and the foreigners of Erin to Desmumha to attack Mac Carthaigh, until they reached the Mangartach of Loch Léin, where Gerald Roche was slain by Mac Carthaigh; and it was said that he was the third best baron in Ireland. And this was the joy with sorrow to Desmumha, for the son of Domhnall Got Mac Carthaigh, i.e. Cormac, son of Domhnall, was slain on that same day; and the foreigners and the Gaedhil suffered great losses on that day around the Mangartach.77

From these accounts it would seem that while Cormac failed to match Finghin's exploits, the Normans gained little advantage either. It is significant that references to attacks on Desmond scarcely occur at all after 1262.78 It is to this period that Hanmer's often-quoted account refers:79

The Carties plaied the Divells in Desmond, where they burned, spoiled, preyed, and slue many an innocent; they became so strong, and prevailed so mightily that for the space (so it is reported) of twelve yeeres the Desmonds durst not but plow in ground in his owne country.

Attempts at subduing the Mac Carthys were of little avail. James de Audley (justiciar from 1270 to 1272) led an expedition against Irish rebels in Desmond86; no results were announced. The Annals of Innisfallen (A.D. 1271) tell us: "A hosting by the foreigners of Ireland into Desmumu to Dún na mBarc, and they turned back from there without doing any further damage."

In 1280 the Mac Carthys of Carbery (then headed by Domhnall óg son of Domhnall Mael) made peace with the main branch of the family, whose king was Domhnall Ruadh mac Carthy.87 They then united to drive out the foreigner. Killorglin was burned and its castle razed. 'And great forays were made there and people slain.' The Normans then evacuated Dunloe, which was promptly burned

Still Domhnall óg (Cairbreach) remained a thorn in the side of the Norman interests. In 1295 he was plundering as far east as Kinalea, having already burned Macloneigh.90 Two years later, he slew John de Courcy, probably to avenge his uncle's death at the hands of Miles de Courcy. When Hubert de Courcy tried to bring Domhnall to justice, the sheriff reported that Domhnall would not submit to justice, and a few months later, that he 'was among the Irish in waste land where no sergeant or bailiff of the king dared to go to attack him.'

this shows that even over 30 years later the Mac Carthys are still fighting and defeating the normans.

[BegottenMeridian]

May I ask, what's the problem with adding both kingdoms?

It would certainly make things more interesting.

Also, I'm getting a "You may not vote on this poll".

Are there restrictions on who gets to vote?

[Polycarpe]

May I ask, what's the problem with adding both kingdoms?

It would certainly make things more interesting.

Also, I'm getting a "You may not vote on this poll".

Are there restrictions on who gets to vote?

No worries, both factions will be in Britannia but we have some limitation for the Grand Campaign, to limit the amount the script will take in term of lag and size.

[BegottenMeridian]

No worries, both factions will be in Britannia but we have some limitation for the Grand Campaign, to limit the amount the script will take in term of lag and size.

Oh ok. Sorry I just noticed you had already said that this was about the Grand Campaign in your first post.

Who was the starting king for Ireland in the Kingdoms: Britannia Campaign?
It says on the internet that it was Brian O'Conner, but I was almost sure it was Brian O' Neill?

[SonofPeverel]

May I ask, what's the problem with adding both kingdoms?

It would certainly make things more interesting.

Also, I'm getting a "You may not vote on this poll".

Are there restrictions on who gets to vote?

Yes, you have to have 25 posts to vote in polls. http://www.twcenter.net/wiki/TWC:FAQ#Post_Count_Ranks

What is your vote any ill add it?

[BegottenMeridian]

Yes, you have to have 25 posts to vote in polls. http://www.twcenter.net/wiki/TWC:FAQ#Post_Count_Ranks

What is your vote any ill add it?

I've decided not to vote just yet anyway. Tigernams and David93 both make convincing arguments. Though I'd be much more interested in playing as the Kingdom of Desmond in the Britannia Campaign I wouldn't really mind who I'd play as in the Grand Campaign.

My own interest in playing as the Kingdom of Desmond from Munster comes from the fact that I come from Munster. So I'd be very happy playing as these guys in both campaigns. But if I were to play as the Kingdom of Desmond in the Britannia Campaign I would still enjoy playing as the Uí Néills in the Grand Campaign for variety.

My own argument for picking a dominating Irish faction would be based on who would be more likely to not just dominate Ireland but the rest of Western Europe also.

Unfortunately I'm not a historian or expert in such matters.

[LYNCHY]

this may sound silly but someone should so do a submod with Cuchulainn or irish hurl units(not historically accurate but awesome) and i also think there should be several irish factions as Ui neill was only dominant in the north around Tir Eoghain (Tyrone in irish which means land of Ui neill) plus i think u should include O'Loingsigh as they were the dominant clan of Gallimh and im a O'Loingsigh (lynch)

[BegottenMeridian]

Found an interesting article that could potentially influence people's decision on the matter: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...irish_men.html

[Kjertesvein]

FYO guys, the northern Ireland kingdom were allied by marrige with what seems to be Lord of Islay, which may be our Hiberno-Norse faction.

Found an interesting article that could potentially influence people's decision on the matter: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...irish_men.html

deam, then he seem to knock Somerled of the throne then who have 500 000. Looks like these guys were quite busy .

~Wille

[Polycarpe]

this may sound silly but someone should so do a submod with Cuchulainn or irish hurl units(not historically accurate but awesome) and i also think there should be several irish factions as Ui neill was only dominant in the north around Tir Eoghain (Tyrone in irish which means land of Ui neill) plus i think u should include O'Loingsigh as they were the dominant clan of Gallimh and im a O'Loingsigh (lynch)

Perhaps but this submod will be done by fans, several of our features and script are linked to the faction. The best will be to add all the dynasties but unfortunately we have to deal with the game's engine limitation.; the more factions we add in, the more work as well turn lag will increase.

But I totally forgot, I could post our upcoming Irish roster perhaps.

[BegottenMeridian]

But I totally forgot, I could post our upcoming Irish roster perhaps.

PLEASE!!!

[Polycarpe]

PLEASE!!!

Will upload you shortly.

Also, from the poll, we will go for the Kingdom of U'Neill. Thank you for participating. Also to point out, we will add both U'Neill and Desmond in Britannia Campaign.

So for now, we will requires the family tree of both kingdoms, also if you can provide secondary/rival family tree within these kingdoms, this will really help us, we will add more than one family tree in each campaign.

[Irish00Barbarian]

my point is in 1260 and they would not have been called O'Neill because they would not have spoken english
let alone be called O'Neill which is the Anglicised version of there name

[Polycarpe]

my point is in 1260 and they would not have been called O'Neill because they would not have spoken english
let alone be called O'Neill which is the Anglicised version of there name

I haven't much information about their language, probably a Irish Gaelic, however what was their native name? We will use both the Anglicised and the native name for each faction.

Once I will have time, I will post the Irish roster and I will want you to tell me your opinion regarding it.

[BegottenMeridian]

I haven't much information about their language, probably a Irish Gaelic, however what was their native name? We will use both the Anglicised and the native name for each faction.

Once I will have time, I will post the Irish roster and I will want you to tell me your opinion regarding it.

The main anglicised part of the name O'Neill is the O' part. This came from the Irish spelling Ó. The English had mistaken the accent for an apostrophe. Therefore the name Ó Neill is probably a valid Irish surname from that time. However, there was probably no certainty among the Irish at the time that there was only one version of this name. The names Ó Neill/Ó Néill/Ua Néill/Uí Néill may all be valid variants of the surname at the time.

I'm not sure though how well this holds in terms of referring to the whole clan at the time.

Someone may need to look up the Ulster Annals to be sure of this.

I may do that myself if I get around to it

[Polycarpe]

Alright, here's the roster (PDF file attached below), tell me what do you think.

[BegottenMeridian]

Alright, here's the roster (PDF file attached below), tell me what do you think.

Sounds pretty good to me.

What are your main resources of research?

[Polycarpe]

Sounds pretty good to me.

What are your main resources of research?

Most of those links, decent info imo.

http://fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/dba164.html
http://fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/dba144.html
Osprey publishing Galloglass 1250–1600

[Mr Kriegtooth]

I'll go with the Ua Neills on this. Im not sure if the Kingdom of Desmond lasted as long, but to my understanding, the dynasty of the Ua Neills fought the English up to the very end of the Irish Wars in the 1600s, so they are definately the guys to go with

Im not sure the plans or limitations of this mod(Just found out about from the Stainless Steel board, my hobby is whining about Ireland...), but I'd include both, and have a script to make the one who wins rule the Kingdom of Ireland and title the faction leader as the High King, or Ard Ri

Kinda ahistorical, but come on, you know you want the High King to run down everyone!