View Poll Results: Which Irish faction should be the main one?

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  • Kingdom of 'Neill

    36 63.16%
  • Kingdomf of Desmond

    17 29.82%
  • Other Irish faction

    4 7.02%
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Thread: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

  1. #61
    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Quote Originally Posted by BegottenMeridian View Post
    I'm not sure if any one else is doing this or if it has already been done but I'm working on the family trees of the Nills and the Mac Carthaighs at the moment. I have most of the family tree done for the Mac Carthaighs and looking into other influential/rival family lines. I have most of the resources I need for the Nills also.

    I have also looked into the language spoken at the time into quite some detail. I'm no expert when it comes to Gaeilge, but I love the language and its history and I am determined on getting the most historically accurate version as possible. So far I've looked into the acceptable spellings of the names of that era: Ua Nill and Mac Carthaig appear to be the Middle Irish variants and Nill and Mac Carthaigh seem to belong to Early Modern Irish. Both seem to be fairly acceptable choices as it was during he 13th century when Irish made that transition. My guess is that the leaders of this period were probably more commonly known as Ua Nill and Mac Carthaig, but as time progresses further into the 14th and 15th centuries I'm sure the names would have made the transition to Nill and Mac Carthaigh (the leaders of the Mac Carthaigh started to adopt the title Mac Carthaigh Mr).

    This is all very debatable as it was only the literate people (monks) who wrote the Annals of Ireland, and it would appear that their own version of the spellings was quite variant.

    I'll keep looking into it and advise on what seems to be the more consistent spelling. It would all depend really on whether you would prefer to maintain the older spellings that were more associated with the kings who reigned at 1245 or if you would prefer the latter versions more associated with the rest of the family.

    Also, if I have the time, I'll look further into politics, law, culture, traditions and military. I have the resources and have viewed much of it before. I could advise on potential agents or military units.

    Please let me know if any of this has already been done so that I'm not wasting my time, I have been putting a lot of research into this and am willing to do more if it is required.

    If you have any requests then please let me know.

    If you have any conflicting ideas with what I have already said then please speak up. I do enjoy a good debate and the more research done by others the better.
    Thanks for the help mate, right now there's a current wip unit roster made for Ireland but can still be improved if you have better and proper names for example (Horseboys, I'm pretty sure there's better name, a Irish name but can't find it.)

    Regarding Language, I believe we will stick with the language spoken from 1245 and 1315 but I think very slight variants were there as you pointed out about the more cultured men wrote the history of Ireland.

    For laws, that would be interesting to have additional information on how recruitment worked, conscript-like laws as well.

    Overall, if you want to share your knowledge about both Irish factions, we will be pleased to received your help.

  2. #62
    BegottenMeridian's Avatar Kabe difendā
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Quote Originally Posted by Polycarpe View Post
    Thanks for the help mate, right now there's a current wip unit roster made for Ireland but can still be improved if you have better and proper names for example (Horseboys, I'm pretty sure there's better name, a Irish name but can't find it.)
    Taken from the Antiquities of Ireland by Edward Ledwich:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    In the age of Cambrensis the Irish had bridles, but no stirrups, boots, nor spurs. The Irish cavalry were styled Hobillers : this name points out its northern origin. They were attended by horse-boys named Daltins, who were the foster children of the clan, and the fame as the French Garciones, and the English Goujats. Spenser thus speaks of our Daltins, "the reason why such are permitted is the want of convenient inns for lodging of travellers on horse-back, and of hostlers to attend their horses by the way. But when things shall be reduced to a better pass, this needeth to be specially reformed; for out of the fry of these rake hell horse-boys, growing up in knavery and villany, are their Kern continually supplied and maintained." This reason is not more applicable to Ireland than any other part of Europe in those uncivilized ages, for inns were not then common in any country. The Normans seem to have taken the idea from the Romans, who found them useful, as the Irish did from the English. In England one page, as he was called, was allowed to two soldiers. By constitutions proclaimed in Ireland, A. D. 1542, it was ordained "that no horseman shall keep more garsons or boys than horses, on pain of twenty shillings." And in 1596, the Lord Deputy and council direct but: one boy to two soldiers, and that they be no charge on the country. As the hobillers had their Daltins so the kerns had their Stocach or boys.


    "Daltins" is no doubt an Anglicisation of the Irish Gaelic dailtn (plural dailtn), a diminutive of dalta (plural dalta).

    Dalta can mean foster child/student/pupil/cadet/mentee.

    You might have noticed another word at the end of the article above: "Stocach".

    This is usually Anglicised as stocah.

    In Irish stcach (plural stcaigh) usually means youth.

    Another word of interest: giolla (plural giolla), usually Anglicised as gillie. It means youth/page/servant. It was probably spelled as gilla (plural gilli) during this time period.

    Is this what you were looking for?


    Edit (more info):
    More interesting information on the stcach:

    Taken from View of the State of Ireland by Edmund Spenser, with a note at the end by someone under the name of Todd.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Eudox. Then when you have thus tythed the communalty, as you say, and set Borsolders over them all, what would you doe when you came to the gentlemen? would you holde the same coarse?

    Iren. Yea, many, most especially; for this you must know, that all the Irish almost boast themselves to be gentlemen, no lesse then the Welsh; for if he can derive himselfe from the head of any sept, (as most of them can, they are so expert by their Bardes,) then hee holdeth himselfe a gentleman, and thereupon scorneth to worke, or use any hard labour, which hee saith, is the life of a peasant or churle; but thenceforth becommeth either an horse-boy, or a stocah to some kerne, inuring himself to his weapon, and to the gentlemanly trade of stealing, (as they count it.) So that if a gentleman, or any wealthy man yeoman of them, have any children, the eldest of them perhaps shall be kept in some order, but all the rest shall shift for themselves, and fall to this occupation. And moreover it is a common use amongst some of their gentlemens sonnes, that so soone as they are able to use their weapons, they straight gather to themselves three or foure straglers, or kearne, with whom wandring a while up and downe idely the countrey, taking onely meate, hee at last falleth unto some bad occasion that shall be offered, which being once made known, hee is thenceforth counted a man of worth, in whome there is courage ; whereupon there draw to him many other like loose young men, which, stirring him up with incouragement, provoke him shortly to flat rebellion ; and this happens not onely sometimes in the sonnes of their gentle-men, but also of their noble-men, specially of them who have base sonnes. For they are not onely not ashamed to acknowledge them, but also boaste of them, and use them to such secret services, as they themselves will not be seene in, as to plague their enemyes, to spoyle their neighbours, to oppresse and crush some of their owne too stubburne free-holders, which are not tractable to their wills.

    The word stocah, as Dr. Johnson observes is probably from the Erse stochk; but it is hardly used by Spenser in the sense of "one who runs at a horseman's foot, or of a horseboy," as the context clearly proves; it may be in that of "an attendant or walletboy." So before: "The strength of all that nation, is the kerne, galloglasse, stocah, horseman, and horseboy, &c." Where the distinction is again preserved. Todd.
    Last edited by BegottenMeridian; April 01, 2012 at 12:32 PM. Reason: More info and spelling errors

  3. #63
    Dearg Doom's Avatar Aquilifer
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Great work on the info sir

  4. #64
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Interesting stuff mate, here's a rep for the info.

    I invite you to take a look at the WIP Irish roster at the bottom, it hasn't been updated since but still we can continue to improve the list, my references on the roster names and such.

    Attached Files Attached Files

  5. #65
    BegottenMeridian's Avatar Kabe difendā
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Can I get a link to some resource for the hobilar unit providing information on its "Irish" name "hobiguir"?

    I've been doing a lot of research and I have not once come across this word. Currently I'm not convinced it's even a real word. Words of Irish origin don't start with the letter h. If this is truly a Gaelic word then it would have to be a Gaelicised corruption of the English word hobilar. Being the fact that hobilar is the English name for an already Irish unit it seems pretty ridiculous that there isn't another word of Irish origin instead of Gaelicising hobilar to "hobiguir". I will post some recommendations on a different name later.

    I'm currently writing down different spellings or names for the units of roster you have posted to more accurately represent the Irish language and its version in this particular time period. Some spelling changes are very minor. Other names of units I have changed. I have also written down variations of names. I will post it later when I'm happy with my decisions and will right an explanation for each change.

    This will only be recommendatory advise on what I believe will better represent the language and names of these units of this period.

  6. #66
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Quote Originally Posted by BegottenMeridian View Post
    Can I get a link to some resource for the hobilar unit providing information on its "Irish" name "hobiguir"?

    I've been doing a lot of research and I have not once come across this word. Currently I'm not convinced it's even a real word. Words of Irish origin don't start with the letter h. If this is truly a Gaelic word then it would have to be a Gaelicised corruption of the English word hobilar. Being the fact that hobilar is the English name for an already Irish unit it seems pretty ridiculous that there isn't another word of Irish origin instead of Gaelicising hobilar to "hobiguir". I will post some recommendations on a different name later.

    I'm currently writing down different spellings or names for the units of roster you have posted to more accurately represent the Irish language and its version in this particular time period. Some spelling changes are very minor. Other names of units I have changed. I have also written down variations of names. I will post it later when I'm happy with my decisions and will right an explanation for each change.

    This will only be recommendatory advise on what I believe will better represent the language and names of these units of this period.
    The term may be not accurate, I couldn't find any references regarding the Hobiguir, I've used the vanilla name and the horseboys, because I couldn't find good references, if you have a better names, this will be much more appropriate.

  7. #67
    BegottenMeridian's Avatar Kabe difendā
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    lught tighe – lucht tighe

    Lucht has been the proper Irish spelling for (a class of) people since Old Irish which dates back to 1500 years ago.

    marcshluag – marcṡluag

    A common variant taken from eDIL. The "ṡ" is how "sh" was written at the time.

    horseboys – gilli na sluag/gilli glomair/gilli scuir/dailtn

    I would consider all of these to be acceptable takes on the Irish horse-boy. The English called them daltins according to Spenser and mentioned they were foster children which complies with the Irish word dalta/dailtn. Gilli na sluag/gilli glomair/gilli scuir were all taken from eDIL (http://www.dil.ie/). The website directly references them to being horseboys. They all variously mean boy servant of the horses/army.

    hobigir – marcra/eachra

    I have my doubts on hobiguir being an actual word. I believe this is something CA made up themselves to “Gaelicise” a cavalry unit that originated in Ireland but was named by the English as hobilars. I could find no references to this word or anything like it whatsoever. It couldn’t have been a proper Irish word anyway as no original word of the Irish language begins with the letter h. Marcra or eachra are both suitable proper Irish substitutes for this unit. They both mean horsemen/cavalry and I don’t think the spelling differs between the historical and modern versions of the language.

    ceithearn – ceithern/ceithernn

    These spellings are better suited for this time period.

    saighdiir – saighdeoir/boghdir

    Again, I think these would be better for this period of time. Saighdiir usually means soldier of a modern army. Saighdeoireacht means archery. Saighdiireacht means military service (modern). Bogha means bow. Boghdireacht also means archery. Saighead means arrow. This is all just to give you a better understanding.

    This is all just advisory. Pick whatever you feel is best suited.
    Last edited by BegottenMeridian; April 01, 2012 at 12:41 PM. Reason: Revised spelling

  8. #68
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Very interesting and great info, +rep.

    From what I've read, the Ceithernn were using javelins, bows, crude weapons (hand axes and dirks notably) spears and glaives (polearms). Do you have a suggestion for:

    • A Ceithernn unit using a Glaive. For now, I have Ceithernn Congbhala (Retainer unit, not sure if that would be appropriate)
    • A Javelinmen unit. At the moment the unit is Ceithernn Coille.
    • A household unit, more professional than the typical Irish levies. What would you suggest for weapons? At the moment I have Ceithernn Tighe, wonder if it's appropriate.
    • A spearmen unit?
    Last edited by Polycarpe; March 24, 2012 at 07:06 PM.

  9. #69
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Quote Originally Posted by Polycarpe View Post
    Very interesting and great info, +rep.

    From what I've read, the Ceithernn were using javelins, bows, crude weapons (hand axes and dirks notably) spears and glaives (polearms). Do you have a suggestion for:

    • A Ceithernn unit using a Glaive. For now, I have Ceithernn Congbhala (Retainer unit, not sure if that would be appropriate)
    • A Javelinmen unit. At the moment the unit is Ceithernn Coille.
    • A household unit, more professional than the typical Irish levies. What would you suggest for weapons? At the moment I have Ceithernn Tighe, wonder if it's appropriate.
    • A spearmen unit?
    Thanks for the rep!

    I've been looking into this and have some ideas. I've come across some other Gaelic military groups and commanders. I haven't fully researched it to my full content so I wont mention my ideas as of yet. I'm quite busy with college at the moment, it's that busy time of the year again.
    I will post more information when I have the time to properly research it and happy with what I have researched, it might be later this week, it might be sometime next month.

    Meanwhile, I'll try to post small amounts of info and their links that may be of interest to this group.

    I was wondering if it was possible to implement into the game some sort of social and political status system for leaders and their sub-leaders?
    e.g. Under the leadership of the High King of Ireland (there arguably never was a High King) there was a king of over-kings, often he was the king of a province. Under the king of over-kings there were the over-kings themselves, a king of regions and territories. Under the over-king there were the kings of single tribes. Maybe this could be done through attributes.
    Some links on the matter:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Irish_law
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_King_of_Ireland
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%AD
    https://sites.google.com/site/brenda...onlawandstatus
    http://www.danann.org/library/law/breh11.html

  10. #70
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Quote Originally Posted by BegottenMeridian View Post
    Thanks for the rep!

    I've been looking into this and have some ideas. I've come across some other Gaelic military groups and commanders. I haven't fully researched it to my full content so I wont mention my ideas as of yet. I'm quite busy with college at the moment, it's that busy time of the year again.
    I will post more information when I have the time to properly research it and happy with what I have researched, it might be later this week, it might be sometime next month.

    Meanwhile, I'll try to post small amounts of info and their links that may be of interest to this group.

    I was wondering if it was possible to implement into the game some sort of social and political status system for leaders and their sub-leaders?
    e.g. Under the leadership of the High King of Ireland (there arguably never was a High King) there was a king of over-kings, often he was the king of a province. Under the king of over-kings there were the over-kings themselves, a king of regions and territories. Under the over-king there were the kings of single tribes. Maybe this could be done through attributes.
    Some links on the matter:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Irish_law
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_King_of_Ireland
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%AD
    https://sites.google.com/site/brenda...onlawandstatus
    http://www.danann.org/library/law/breh11.html
    No worries, same things on my side in school, pharmacology, urology and toxicology, quite lucky really
    Yes, ancillaries could be quite interesting, a large bonus to authority if the leader succeed to make Ireland all together under his rule, becoming the High King of Ireland.

  11. #71
    ShadowKiller2000's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Very nice work on the Irish! + rep

    I do have a question or 2:

    Will the Irish have a 2 handed sword unit? It would seem fitting as they had Ulster swordsmen in Kingdoms.

    I understand that unit may have been fictional, but didn't the Irish use 2 handed blades in battle quite often?

    So just seeing if you guys are including that in the mod

    Never forget who you are, for surely the world wont. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, & it will never be used to hurt you. Tyrion Lannister

    "The North remembers" Wyman The Godfather Manderly

  12. #72
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowKiller2000 View Post
    Very nice work on the Irish! + rep

    I do have a question or 2:

    Will the Irish have a 2 handed sword unit? It would seem fitting as they had Ulster swordsmen in Kingdoms.

    I understand that unit may have been fictional, but didn't the Irish use 2 handed blades in battle quite often?

    So just seeing if you guys are including that in the mod
    Well in the timeframe of the mod (1245-1315), there's no soldiers who used a two-handed sword (claymore for instance). That weapon, originated from Western Highlands in the 15th century, were used in Ireland by the Galloglaigh but their main weapon was the Sparr axe. So even it would be cool to add it, for the main mod, it is an anachronism but still someone could make a fun submod and change it.

  13. #73
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Quote Originally Posted by Polycarpe View Post
    Well in the timeframe of the mod (1245-1315), there's no soldiers who used a two-handed sword (claymore for instance). That weapon, originated from Western Highlands in the 15th century, were used in Ireland by the Galloglaigh but their main weapon was the Sparr axe. So even it would be cool to add it, for the main mod, it is an anachronism but still someone could make a fun submod and change it.
    How did the two-handed sword originate in scotland? They were made in ireland that was my impression anyhow

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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Ah that explains it then. I knew the Irish borrowed the idea from the Galoglaigh, and began making their own Claymores later on. I was asking as I had been looking online anyway to buy Irish swords and found this link. http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/irish-swords.html


    Too bad they did not do it in the timeframe of this campaign!

    Ah so there is a possiblility of having them in the grand campaign? I am going to keep my fingers crossed for that.

    Edit: Ah you beat me to the punch Doom....the Irish did make their own version of the Claymore. I just think it was after the Scottish. But I am no historian, so I could be wrong.
    Last edited by ShadowKiller2000; March 28, 2012 at 01:01 PM.

    Never forget who you are, for surely the world wont. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, & it will never be used to hurt you. Tyrion Lannister

    "The North remembers" Wyman The Godfather Manderly

  15. #75
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Interesting info on Irish weapons with some images:
    http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewto...er=asc&start=0

    Some of it (or a lot of it) might be more based on the 15th and 16th century, still interesting though.

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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowKiller2000 View Post
    Ah that explains it then. I knew the Irish borrowed the idea from the Galoglaigh, and began making their own Claymores later on. I was asking as I had been looking online anyway to buy Irish swords and found this link. http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/irish-swords.html


    Too bad they did not do it in the timeframe of this campaign!

    Ah so there is a possiblility of having them in the grand campaign? I am going to keep my fingers crossed for that.

    Edit: Ah you beat me to the punch Doom....the Irish did make their own version of the Claymore. I just think it was after the Scottish. But I am no historian, so I could be wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dearg Doom View Post
    How did the two-handed sword originate in scotland? They were made in ireland that was my impression anyhow
    Basically, the two-handed swords were used mainly by three cultures; the Germans (and some Swiss), the Scotsmen and Irishmen. IN any culture, the first mainly appearance of these weapons appeared in the 15-16th century. At the Battle of Bannockburn (1386), several references pointed out the Two-handed Sword was used by many Highlanders as a shock trooper.

    The Zweihander (German Sword) was slightly different than the Claymore (Gaelic weapon). The first one was heavier and was by the mass (crushing effect) the effect of the weapon could be used. On the other hand, the Claymore, slightly smaller and lighter, could be used with more ease with cuts and piercing.

    In the Grand Campaign, yes, there will be two-handed swordsmen; the Galloglaigh (British Isles) and the Doppelsoldner (Germany).

  17. #77
    ShadowKiller2000's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Ah nice to see there will be some 2 handed sword units

    Will they be mercs in the Brittish isles? Or can both the Irish and Scottish recruit them as normal units?

    Never forget who you are, for surely the world wont. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, & it will never be used to hurt you. Tyrion Lannister

    "The North remembers" Wyman The Godfather Manderly

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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowKiller2000 View Post
    Ah nice to see there will be some 2 handed sword units

    Will they be mercs in the Brittish isles? Or can both the Irish and Scottish recruit them as normal units?
    The Lordship of the Isles will recruit Galloglach as normal units. Other factions will recruit Galloglach as mercenaries, either through diplomacy (alliance with the Lordship) or by AoR.

  19. #79
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond


  20. #80
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Quote Originally Posted by Dearg Doom View Post
    Yes, P.W. Joyce's works are excellent resources. If anyone is interested in Irish history then I recommend gaining a copy of A Social History of Ancient Ireland. It's available on archive.org.

    I made some changes in two of my posts above with some revised spellings after more research on the historical aspect of the Irish language.

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