View Poll Results: Which Irish faction should be the main one?

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  • Kingdom of 'Neill

    35 62.50%
  • Kingdomf of Desmond

    17 30.36%
  • Other Irish faction

    4 7.14%
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Thread: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

  1. #41
    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Kriegtooth View Post
    I'll go with the Ua Neills on this. Im not sure if the Kingdom of Desmond lasted as long, but to my understanding, the dynasty of the Ua Neills fought the English up to the very end of the Irish Wars in the 1600s, so they are definately the guys to go with

    Im not sure the plans or limitations of this mod(Just found out about from the Stainless Steel board, my hobby is whining about Ireland...), but I'd include both, and have a script to make the one who wins rule the Kingdom of Ireland and title the faction leader as the High King, or Ard Ri

    Kinda ahistorical, but come on, you know you want the High King to run down everyone!
    Hi, for the Britannia campaign, you will be able to play as either the Kingdom of Desmond or the Ua Neils, with a combination of script, you will struggle for holding Ireland and becomes once again the High King of Ireland.

    I also invite you to read the unit roster for Ireland (PDF file) 4 posts above this one, if you have any suggestion, please let us know.

  2. #42
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Pretty good, but im thinking just a slight bit lacking on dismounted melee units. It'd just be the Retained Kerns and the Galloglach, correct? I'd add in a Bonnachts or something

    The Bonnacht were Irish retained warriors, not of lower class. According to my book, they often adopted Galloglass weaponry, but you could give them whatever you feel is good, dont want redundency. Also, maybe have two types of Galloglass units, one with axe, the other armed with claymore?

    My book I have is Osprey Publishing's The Irish Wars 1485-1603. The mod isnt for that timeline, but maybe the Galloglass were armed with both types of weapons, and the Bonnachts existed prior to then :p

  3. #43
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    I did a submod for the U Neill for the Last Kingdom though i don't think the style of the two mods matches (also the dates are way off) But if you want to have a look at how i did them the thread is here.

    Also this is an interesting read which coincides with your timeframe afaik.
    Last edited by smoesville; December 24, 2011 at 12:59 PM.
    That Which is Written, Survives|The Last Kingdom |U Nill Faction Submod

    Were there but a tree in this godforsaken place i would have hanged myself.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    @Mr Kriegtooth
    Pretty good, but im thinking just a slight bit lacking on dismounted melee units. It'd just be the Retained Kerns and the Galloglach, correct? I'd add in a Bonnachts or something

    The Bonnacht were Irish retained warriors, not of lower class. According to my book, they often adopted Galloglass weaponry, but you could give them whatever you feel is good, dont want redundency. Also, maybe have two types of Galloglass units, one with axe, the other armed with claymore?

    My book I have is Osprey Publishing's The Irish Wars 1485-1603. The mod isnt for that timeline, but maybe the Galloglass were armed with both types of weapons, and the Bonnachts existed prior to then :p
    Hi there, I think you've missed several units right there my friend, in fact, the Galloglaigh weren't used by Ireland (U'Neill notably) prior 1258 due to the political relationship between the kingdoms of the isles (new faction) and Ireland however they will be accessible later on in the mod as being Irish Galloglaigh.

    For the second part, from my sources, the Bonnachts weren't a unit by itself but rather a military bill, sort of conscription system, hence the Kerns (Ceitheirns). The roster has been built with different Ceitherns (Irish warbands) which include at least 4 different Ceitheirns units (basic levies, javelinmen, trained archers and Kern retinue). Just take a look again and you'll see what I mean but appreciate the comment.

    @Smoeville
    Thank you very much for those sources and I will take the time to take a look at your submod as well the source gieven, obviously I can't read it right now since it's the Holidays but no worries, I will take the time to take a look, thanks again.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    What units? The PDF makes it sound like theres 3 melee units, the Gallogliach, and two of the Kern units sound melee oriented

    Or is the plan to make the Kern proficient in melee, AND skirmishing? :3 I'd like that, I have trouble using skirmisher heavy armies since I eventually need to go melee, and I have nothing to go with

    Edit: As for the Bonnacht, according to my book, there a middle class kind of thing, sort of a levy, but higher up on the thing than the Kerns. Granted, my book, The Irish Wars, is for 1485 to 1602. So might not have been the same, all my sources for Eire are either that period or the Dark Ages
    Last edited by Mr Kriegtooth; December 24, 2011 at 08:33 PM. Reason: Forgot something

  6. #46
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Kriegtooth View Post
    What units? The PDF makes it sound like theres 3 melee units, the Gallogliach, and two of the Kern units sound melee oriented

    Or is the plan to make the Kern proficient in melee, AND skirmishing? :3 I'd like that, I have trouble using skirmisher heavy armies since I eventually need to go melee, and I have nothing to go with

    Edit: As for the Bonnacht, according to my book, there a middle class kind of thing, sort of a levy, but higher up on the thing than the Kerns. Granted, my book, The Irish Wars, is for 1485 to 1602. So might not have been the same, all my sources for Eire are either that period or the Dark Ages
    Perhaps the Bonnaughts were present at that time but I would stick with the Ceithearn Tighe for the Kern middle class since all my sources I've used confirmed me that unit at least twice but in term of equipment, we have planned to make it slightly more armored (since Irishmen weren't really using heavy armours) like leather or gambeson coupled with Leine Croine along using a spear weapon (a common weapon used to counter cavalrymen) and kite shield mixed with gaelic desingns (therefore less bigger, more round).

    Also to take note that the Irish warfare were really based on skirmishes and guerrilla fights, they wouldn't fight on an open battlefield like the Normans for example, the Irish Galllglaigh were really, along the noblemen, the only warriors to do pitch fights on an open field due to their heavier equipment.

    Let's just make a quick review of the roster

    Ceithearns: Basic infantrymen, unarmored and using any weapons that were cheap to produce and be effective, hand axe was a popular weapon in the Kerns.

    Ceithearn Coille: Those ceithearns are the typical javelinmen of the Kerns, every Irishmen were at least proeficient with javelins been both powerful and excellent in skirmishes.

    Ceithearn Congbhala: Those are Ceithearns using polearm weapons, a common weapon used by the Irish was the glaive. Again, not armoured and using that weapon.

    Ceithearn Tighe: As said above, the stronger Ceithearns, forming a powerful and professional retinue force. They were acting as police and guard. As a result, the equipment of choice would have been a spear, a larger shield (not a targe), leather/gambeson (some of them may have mail haubergon) along with a rigorous discipline.

    Later on you will possess in the Irish arsenal the Galloglaigh, the heavy duty guy who hack the enemies with ease along with a great ferocity quite renowned. Another heavy infantry? Indeed the Irish noblemen Marcshluag, equivalent equipped as the Galloglaigh (therefore heavy mail hauberk), gaelic shield and swords.

    As you can see, there's enough infantry right here filling all the required roles but you must remember that the Irish weren't fighting as England of France; ambushes, guerrilla fights and skirmishes were their strength.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Oooh, I see now. In the thing I downloaded, theMarcshluag are mentioned as being cavalry, so I didnt think there was a dismounted version :3

    But that all sounds great, should definately work and be fun to play!

  8. #48
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Hey guys big fan of the mod, i have done quite a bit of research on irish medieval history and i think i could help you flesh out your irish unit roster. The Galloglass in particular could actually be made into at least two separate units. One unit would be armed with double-handed broadaxe's and the other unit would be equipped with a spear .The spear (craoiseach) was undoubtedly a major alternative to the axe. As a side arm, the galloglass carried a dirk, an item Dymmok called 'a skeine', having 'Englished' the Irish word scian. A short hunting bow (boga) and a cruciform-hilted, single-handed broadsword (cloidem) in a wide, fringed scabbard were likewise common side arms.

    So basically our two units could look exactly the same but with different equipment.
    Unit 1: Two Handed battleaxe as the main weapon, and either a dirk or a one handed sword as your secondary weapon.
    Unit 2: Spear as the main weapon with a bow as the secondary weapon.

    Also i would refrain from using a two handed claymore as these were not as widely used as the Axe or the spear.
    Source= Galloglass 1250-1600

  9. #49
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    I also have a good idea for an ancillary for an irish lord "The lord's galloglass" The 'lord's galloglass', was a man of exceptional loyalty, diligence and close-quarter fighting skills. To be a lord's galloglass was materially very rewarding, even luxurious, but it was also highly dangerous - perhaps even more so than serving as a galloglass axeman. The lord's galloglass routinely had to ward off assassins and take up challenges made against his employer. I think this could be used to give +2 security and plus +2 Hitpoints representing this man protecting his lord?

  10. #50
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Quote Originally Posted by Dearg Doom View Post
    Hey guys big fan of the mod, i have done quite a bit of research on irish medieval history and i think i could help you flesh out your irish unit roster. The Galloglass in particular could actually be made into at least two separate units. One unit would be armed with double-handed broadaxe's and the other unit would be equipped with a spear .The spear (craoiseach) was undoubtedly a major alternative to the axe. As a side arm, the galloglass carried a dirk, an item Dymmok called 'a skeine', having 'Englished' the Irish word scian. A short hunting bow (boga) and a cruciform-hilted, single-handed broadsword (cloidem) in a wide, fringed scabbard were likewise common side arms.

    So basically our two units could look exactly the same but with different equipment.
    Unit 1: Two Handed battleaxe as the main weapon, and either a dirk or a one handed sword as your secondary weapon.
    Unit 2: Spear as the main weapon with a bow as the secondary weapon.

    Also i would refrain from using a two handed claymore as these were not as widely used as the Axe or the spear.
    Source= Galloglass 1250-1600
    Hi there, glad you like the project. As I can see, you have good suggestions as well using the same reference as we have used regarding the Galloglaigh however just some details we have planned about this fearsome and renowned unit

    When we think Galloglaigh, we think Ireland, that's a fact but by the origin, the Galloglaigh were coming from the West Highlands of Scotland and the Hebridean isles. One of the new faction we will introduce in Britannia is actually the Kingdom of the Isles (Hebridean) and the Galloglaigh will be in their main unit roster. However, as in history, Ireland will be able, later on, to train and recruit "Irish" Galloglaigh but Ireland will be able, along any other factions, to get access to the Galloglaigh by diplomatic events and actions such by forming an alliance between your faction and the Kingdom of the Isles as in 1258 when the King of the Isles sent the first Galloglaigh retinue to the U'Neill Kingdom.

    The second consideration we may take but as for now we have designed two units of Galloglaigh, one which is the typical two-handed axemen used to be seen and the second is the Lord's Galloglaigh or Luchd-irde an Tighearna, the Hebridean general's bodyguards which is also an axemen unit.

    As currently set, the Galloglaigh will be the two-handed axemen but nothing is impossible for those weapon options

    I also have a good idea for an ancillary for an irish lord "The lord's galloglass" The 'lord's galloglass', was a man of exceptional loyalty, diligence and close-quarter fighting skills. To be a lord's galloglass was materially very rewarding, even luxurious, but it was also highly dangerous - perhaps even more so than serving as a galloglass axeman. The lord's galloglass routinely had to ward off assassins and take up challenges made against his employer. I think this could be used to give +2 security and plus +2 Hitpoints representing this man protecting his lord?
    Good suggestion but as answered above, they will act as Hebridean General's Bodyguards.

  11. #51
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Quote Originally Posted by St. Polycarpe View Post
    Hi there, glad you like the project. As I can see, you have good suggestions as well using the same reference as we have used regarding the Galloglaigh however just some details we have planned about this fearsome and renowned unit

    When we think Galloglaigh, we think Ireland, that's a fact but by the origin, the Galloglaigh were coming from the West Highlands of Scotland and the Hebridean isles. One of the new faction we will introduce in Britannia is actually the Kingdom of the Isles (Hebridean) and the Galloglaigh will be in their main unit roster. However, as in history, Ireland will be able, later on, to train and recruit "Irish" Galloglaigh but Ireland will be able, along any other factions, to get access to the Galloglaigh by diplomatic events and actions such by forming an alliance between your faction and the Kingdom of the Isles as in 1258 when the King of the Isles sent the first Galloglaigh retinue to the U'Neill Kingdom.

    The second consideration we may take but as for now we have designed two units of Galloglaigh, one which is the typical two-handed axemen used to be seen and the second is the Lord's Galloglaigh or Luchd-irde an Tighearna, the Hebridean general's bodyguards which is also an axemen unit.

    As currently set, the Galloglaigh will be the two-handed axemen but nothing is impossible for those weapon options



    Good suggestion but as answered above, they will act as Hebridean General's Bodyguards.
    Ah sweet thats perfect

  12. #52
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Oh i also believe the kingdom of desmond would be better for the main campaign. My reason? The Kingdom of Desmond would have a larger unit roster!

    The kingdom of Desmond would naturally have access to all the gaelic troop types but it would also have access to irish knights. The descendents of the cambro-norman's, who even though became "more irish than the irish themselves" still kept onto some of their roots fighting as knights much like the rest of western europe. Although like the scottish knights they prbly wouldnt be as well equipped as the other knights on the european mainland and england. I think not representing these very important irish lords would be a mistake.
    Oh and if by mistake i haven't read or missed something and this is all irellavent then forgive me, i just want to help this team as much as possible
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Norman knight.gif  
    Last edited by Dearg Doom; January 25, 2012 at 05:50 PM.

  13. #53
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Quote Originally Posted by Dearg Doom View Post
    Oh i also believe the kingdom of desmond would be better for the main campaign. My reason? The Kingdom of Desmond would have a larger unit roster!

    The kingdom of Desmond would naturally have access to all the gaelic troop types but it would also have access to irish knights. The descendents of the cambro-norman's, who even though became "more irish than the irish themselves" still kept onto some of their roots fighting as knights much like the rest of western europe. Although like the scottish knights they prbly wouldnt be as well equipped as the other knights on the european mainland and england. I think not representing these very important irish lords would be a mistake.
    Oh and if by mistake i haven't read or missed something and this is all irellavent then forgive me, i just want to help this team as much as possible
    Glad you give suggestions mate, regarding the Irish knights, I believe they were the equivalent of the Marcschluag? I may be wrong too.

  14. #54
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Quote Originally Posted by St. Polycarpe View Post
    Glad you give suggestions mate, regarding the Irish knights, I believe they were the equivalent of the Marcschluag? I may be wrong too.
    Well the Marcsghluag are gaelic cavalry in this mod, correct?
    The Irish knights im on about are decended from the normans, so they would be equipped like english and french knights if you can understand what im trying to say

  15. #55
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Quote Originally Posted by Dearg Doom View Post
    Well the Marcsghluag are gaelic cavalry in this mod, correct?
    The Irish knights im on about are decended from the normans, so they would be equipped like english and french knights if you can understand what im trying to say
    Yes I understand what you mean..Ridire will be your Irish knights you are speaking of.

  16. #56
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Quote Originally Posted by St. Polycarpe View Post
    Yes I understand what you mean..Ridire will be your Irish knights you are speaking of.
    Will these Ridire be included? and if so will they be anything like what they were in vanilla Kingdoms?

  17. #57
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Quote Originally Posted by BegottenMeridian View Post
    Will these Ridire be included? and if so will they be anything like what they were in vanilla Kingdoms?
    Yes, they could be an interesting unit unique to Desmond, equipped and fighting as the Norman ways.

  18. #58
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Quote Originally Posted by BegottenMeridian View Post
    Will these Ridire be included? and if so will they be anything like what they were in vanilla Kingdoms?
    Well, my main goal when designing units is to make them as historically accurate as possible, which by default means that they will probably be nothing like vanilla

  19. #59
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    Quote Originally Posted by St. Polycarpe View Post
    Yes, they could be an interesting unit unique to Desmond, equipped and fighting as the Norman ways.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Hamilton View Post
    Well, my main goal when designing units is to make them as historically accurate as possible, which by default means that they will probably be nothing like vanilla
    Great stuff guys! I love everything I hear about this project! Also looking forward to the next preview!

  20. #60
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of 'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

    I'm not sure if any one else is doing this or if it has already been done but I'm working on the family trees of the Nills and the Mac Carthaighs at the moment. I have most of the family tree done for the Mac Carthaighs and looking into other influential/rival family lines. I have most of the resources I need for the Nills also.

    I have also looked into the language spoken at the time into quite some detail. I'm no expert when it comes to Gaeilge, but I love the language and its history and I am determined on getting the most historically accurate version as possible. So far I've looked into the acceptable spellings of the names of that era: Ua Nill and Mac Carthaig appear to be the Middle Irish variants and Nill and Mac Carthaigh seem to belong to Early Modern Irish. Both seem to be fairly acceptable choices as it was during he 13th century when Irish made that transition. My guess is that the leaders of this period were probably more commonly known as Ua Nill and Mac Carthaig, but as time progresses further into the 14th and 15th centuries I'm sure the names would have made the transition to Nill and Mac Carthaigh (the leaders of the Mac Carthaigh started to adopt the title Mac Carthaigh Mr).

    This is all very debatable as it was only the literate people (monks) who wrote the Annals of Ireland, and it would appear that their own version of the spellings was quite variant.

    I'll keep looking into it and advise on what seems to be the more consistent spelling. It would all depend really on whether you would prefer to maintain the older spellings that were more associated with the kings who reigned at 1245 or if you would prefer the latter versions more associated with the rest of the family.

    Also, if I have the time, I'll look further into politics, law, culture, traditions and military. I have the resources and have viewed much of it before. I could advise on potential agents or military units.

    Please let me know if any of this has already been done so that I'm not wasting my time, I have been putting a lot of research into this and am willing to do more if it is required.

    If you have any requests then please let me know.

    If you have any conflicting ideas with what I have already said then please speak up. I do enjoy a good debate and the more research done by others the better.

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