[Faction Research] Kingdom of Ù'Neill or Kingdom of Desmond

[Polycarpe]

This thread will be about Ireland, we have chosen Ù'Neill as the main Irish faction but we are not completely sure if it's THE most influent faction that has a great impact on the Norman invasion along the Irish control. We have a poll for which faction should be the most important in 1245 to 1454 in the Grand Campaign.

Fire away!

St. Polycarpe

[David93]

Here are the faction symbols of the two factions, just to let use have a feel for them
Created by our brilliant Lord Hamilton. make sure to pass him along a rep

O'Neill

The kingdom of desmond, ruled by the MacCarthy Dynasty

Well considering i didnt start the thread i guess i can be a little bias and give some reasons for the one i feel deserves the position more

To help you get a feel of the factions and positions a map of medieval ireland, 5 years after the start of the mod

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As you can see the borders arent well defined and its hard to see exactly who held more territory.

IMO the MacCarthys deserve the spot more than the o'neills, the Kingdom of Desmond was powerfull and influential and resisted norman rule defeating the normans decisively in 1261 at the battle of Callann led by Finghin Mac Carthaigh the king of desmond. Who after this battle became hailed as a hero of ireland.
The ui'neills were also a powerfull kingdom of this era but were actually defeated by the normans at the battle of Druim Dreag, were the normans win decisively killing their current leader Brian Ua neill.
Heres a quick list of battles people can look into

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...s#13th_century

[AnthoniusII]

My opinion is that you need two Irish factions and several "irish rebel" settlements. One Goal of the players will be the union of Irish lands under one crown. But you must give the player at least two choices. No need to create diferent army rosters at all! Just diferent banners.

[The Spartan Warlord]

I like Anths idea.

[Polycarpe]

My opinion is that you need two Irish factions and several "irish rebel" settlements. One Goal of the players will be the union of Irish lands under one crown. But you must give the player at least two choices. No need to create diferent army rosters at all! Just diferent banners.

Yeah I forgot to precise the case, this choice if for the Grand Campaign (will edit the post), for Britannia (first release) it will encompasses both kingdom. Due to certain feature limitation, we will have to chose between those kingdoms.

[AnthoniusII]

In TGC will be 3 major islamic factions that will sufair dynastic changes and state separations (4th faction).
But the player that will chose one of them will have to re unite the islamic world and rebirth the mighty Chaliphate.
Romans will have to re make Heracleius empire ,HRE will have to remake the Charlomagne's great empire and so on.
You must add to your script very tampteting rewards and proper misions to "force" players to do such things.

[SonofPeverel]

I like the idea of both in the Brittanica Campaign. As for the grand campaign,which ever Dave thinks is best. That way i will take joy in defeating them . I will do some research and then vote in the poll.

[♠ Thomas Cochrane ♠]

Wait wait wait.
Forgive my ignorance, but all this talk about TGC and Britannica campaigns... I thought the Grand Campaign was going to be on a map which only went as far east and south as Rome, and Gibraltar. How are there going to be 4 islamic nations? I have to say the scope of the map that i'd seen in the preview was the primary reason I got on board in support of this project, due to the more specifically limited scope of the campaign. Can you confirm then that the map will be all-expansive, or a zoomed in map of (better) dimensions?
Cochrane.

[Kjertesvein]

Two campaigns: One for Britannia and one for western europe (Trondheim, Norway; to northern spain. From Ireland to Poland).

~Wille

[♠ Thomas Cochrane ♠]

...in which case, if it's not too much to ask, I would like to see the next mini-preview of a map overview. As in just a pic of europe with region boundaries drawn in.

[Kjertesvein]

Then Blip and SonofPeverel are your men, and they will arrive precisely when they means to.

~Wille the Gray

[SonofPeverel]

We are workin on it now...there is a pic of the map template in the mod overview PDF

[BLIP99]

...in which case, if it's not too much to ask, I would like to see the next mini-preview of a map overview. As in just a pic of europe with region boundaries drawn in.

Yes we are working on it as we speak, the regions list is coming together nicely, for the Britannia campaign at least

[Kjertesvein]

My deciding factor here is really what's up with the other minor areas? in the center. Who were they alliedto?


~Wille

[AnthoniusII]

Wait wait wait.
Forgive my ignorance, but all this talk about TGC and Britannica campaigns... I thought the Grand Campaign was going to be on a map which only went as far east and south as Rome, and Gibraltar. How are there going to be 4 islamic nations? I have to say the scope of the map that i'd seen in the preview was the primary reason I got on board in support of this project, due to the more specifically limited scope of the campaign. Can you confirm then that the map will be all-expansive, or a zoomed in map of (better) dimensions?
Cochrane.

I made a sugestion (of what goals would be for Irish for example/unite the island under one ruler) based on TGC mod's features. TGC is entirely diferent mod to an entirely diferent part of the world, in an other era.

[Polycarpe]

I made a sugestion (of what goals would be for Irish for example/unite the island under one ruler) based on TGC mod's features. TGC is entirely diferent mod to an entirely diferent part of the world, in an other era.

Yep, indeed, the interactive "Golden Age" goal is the same type of feature as TGC, for example with the Swiss, you start as the Canton of Uri and you must form the Swiss Confederacy by capturing the other cantons.

David provides a good argument for the Kingdom of Desmond, who wants to provide a good reason to take the Ù'Neill? As for now the poll has 5 votes for this kingdom and 3 for Desmond.

[Irish00Barbarian]

Developers of this mod

I would like for you to know(since i'm Irish I know what I'm talking about)

it's the Kingdom Of Uí Neill
or alternatively the Kingdom of Ulaídh

Thank you.

Edit

there are some discussion about this though but because they spoke Medium Irish back in 1250 i would say
it would be spelt
" Uí Niall"
there are no apostrophes in the irish language and there never were that's an english addition
and they wouldn't have spoken english back in 1250 not even The anglo-normans would have spoken English
it means "Of/from Niall" referring to Niall of the nine hostages

[David93]

its actually the o'neills (O'Neill dynasty) we'll be using, the O'Neills of tyrone most likely, ui neill is generally considered a bit earlier. The O'Neills actually took their name from Niall Glúndub from Cenél nEógain not Niall Noígíallach, Cenél nEógain were descendants of Eoghan mac Néill, were a branch of the Ui Neill.
Do you know anything about the O'Neills and there power at this time?

[Tigernams]

It should b the O'Neills. Yes they may have been defeated in 1260 (in a battle they should of won) but the fact that they managed to assemble the coalition to attack eastern ulster/ulaid in the first place is an achievement of itself and Brian O'Neill was recognised as High King by his Irish neighbours. In addition, the O'Neills played a larger role in politics outside Ireland, writing the remonstrance to the pope in the early 14th century, inviting Edward Bruce to become King of Ireland and supplying men and materials to the Western Isles. Of course, beyond this mods time period in the 16th century the O'Neills offered the fiercest resistance to the Tudor reconquest, nearly bankrupting the english crown.

[David93]

Losing is not really an achivement in all honesty, bringing edward the bruce in and then swearing fealty to a foriegn king isnt really an achievement either. As you said 16th century is past out time frame of the early campaign.
The Mac Carthys on the other hand turned the tide against the normans.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

"but Finghin Mac Carthy had learned much from his opponents during his years of conflict, while he had the added advantage of knowing intimately the territory over which he fought. At Callann he chose his battleground, at a spot where a mountainy river called the Slaheny joins the Ruachtach,61 close by the castle of Ardtully. No doubt he reckoned that here the heavily-armoured cavalry of the invader could be used to the least advantage. Battle was then62 joined and Finghin mac Domhnaill mhic Charthaigh emerged victorious.
Unfortunately no details of the conflict, --apart from the names of those slain--are available. Incidentally, the fullest account of the battle is given, not by the Munster annals, but by the Annals of Loch Ce and Annals of Connacht:

A.D. 1261. A great war and numerous injuries were committed in this year by Finghin, son of Domhnall Mac Carthaigh and his brothers, against the foreigners. There was a great hosting by the Geraldines into Desmond to attack Mac Carthy, but it was Mac Carthy attacked them, and defeated them. There were killed there the son of Thomas (John was his own name), his son, and fifteen knights along with them. Eight good barons were also slain with many squires and soldiers (sersénaigh) innumerable.63

The loss of the head of the Munster Geraldines and his heir64 was not the most grievous blow the Normans suffered. Worse still was the loss of prestige occasioned by the magnitude and conclusiveness of the defeat itself. Little wonder that it marked a turning-point in their fortunes. In the early days of the conquest, their heavily-armed professional soldiers had but to show themselves to strike terror into the hearts of the natives, as did John de Courcy's men when the Ulaidh assembled to attack them at Downpatrick in 1178.65 Indeed, only the year before Callann, another crushing defeat at Downpatrick drew the following poetic lament: Unequal they came to the battle,
The foreigners and the race of Tara,
Fine linen shirts on the race of Conn,
The foreigners one mass of iron.66
Now, however, Finghin Mac Carthy's lightly-clad Gaedhil had proved themselves the equals of the Normans in battle. The resulting uplift to their morale made itself felt immediately. At the head of the Desmumu, Finghin swept eastwards and northwards through Desmond, burning the Norman strongholds of Dún Mic Oghmainn,67 Dún Uisce,68 Macroom, Magh Oiligh,69 Dunloe, and Killorglin, as well as much of the land of Uí Chonaill.70
'Fasighi imdha i nNessumin' (many wastes in Desmond) the Annals of Innisfallen commented briefly. Not even the Cogan lands in Muskerry escaped, for at least three of the castles mentioned, --Dún Uisce, Macroom, and Magh Oiligh--were on the territory of the Cogans. Finghin spared nobody in his determined efforts to clear everyone of Norman descent out of the once extensive kingdom of his great-grandfather, Dermot Mac Carthy."

as you can see after this battle the tide turned against the normans and the Mac Carthys were at the heart of it. Even after the death of Finghin the MaC Carthys continued to show their power. He was succeeded by Cormac His reign was brief, but witnessed the crushing defeat of the Anglo-Normans
"Tradition has that the MacSweeneys arrived earlier during the reign of King Cormac V for the war against the Anglo-Normans, whom he defeated at the Battle of Mangerton in 1262, and at which he was killed."