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Thread: [Preview] Kingdom of England

  1. #41
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    Default Re: [Preview] Kingdom of England

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Hamilton View Post
    Thanks, I definitely agree! Great system they have going on over there on the M&B forums - wish there was more of that here on TWC to be honest...
    Indeed. Those models and skins are really well made, and porting them to M2tw is certainly not an easy task.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Hamilton View Post
    Edited the first post to correct the name - it was actually supposed to be Yamabusi.
    I've never expected that lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Hamilton View Post
    Glad you like what we've cobbled together!
    Well, who doesn't? You guys are making beauties.

  2. #42
    dukewilliam's Avatar Sukauto
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    Thank you for the info
    Quote:Good observation. Actually, however, the famed William Marshal was already dead by the time our mod begins - died 1219, WotW begins around 1250 or so. The coat of arms you see there actually comes from Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, who fought with Edward I at Falkirk against the Scots. (source).

    The coat of arms is an interesting story; there are a few details on William Marshall's wikipedia entry, but I'm sure you could find additional info pretty easily via Google.

    Basically, William Marshall's sons all died without male heirs to pass on their hereditary titles. As such, they were passed down through Marshall's female descendants, with the title of "Marshall" going to the Bigod family of Norfolk, while the De Valence family (depicted in the c. 1300 knights) inherited the Earldom of Pembroke.

    Looks amazing
    Last edited by David93; March 01, 2012 at 04:07 AM.

  3. #43
    Lord Minotaur's Avatar Hastatas Prior
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    Default Re: [Preview] Kingdom of England

    Soo hardcore

  4. #44
    Caudillo87's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: [Preview] Kingdom of England

    This is really cool!
    Last edited by Caudillo87; March 05, 2012 at 11:40 PM.

  5. #45
    lolIsuck's Avatar WE HAVE NO CAKE?!
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    Default Re: [Preview] Kingdom of England

    Yes it totally is.

  6. #46
    Druvatar De Bodemloze's Avatar Ctd`s r 4 loser`s
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    Default Re: [Preview] Kingdom of England

    this is looking good!

  7. #47
    YourStepDad's Avatar Hastatas Prior
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    Default Re: [Preview] Kingdom of England

    My god...I never saw total war units looking this good. So...rugged, so...English.

    I absolutely can NOT wait for this mod to be done.

  8. #48
    ╬Ritterbruder╬'s Avatar Princeps Prior
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    Default Re: [Preview] Kingdom of England


    mod of the decade award inbound!
    Quote Originally Posted by wyrda78 View Post
    Well maybe if there was a thread instructing people on how to mod there would be more modders.

  9. #49
    beckyolt's Avatar Equites
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    Default Re: [Preview] Kingdom of England

    Holy crap, you guys have some pretty damn amazing unit skins. This mod actually caught my eye ( Duchy of Brittany, Navarre... some really nteresting factions !) Wish you guys best of luck!

  10. #50
    Legio XV Apollinaris's Avatar Signifer
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    Default Re: [Preview] Kingdom of England

    very nice units and textures! .. all units look so historical accurate .. i especially really like that you put the arrows on the sides from the archers, without a quiver and only hold with a towel! nice one +rep LH
    The night was so black, as we planned to attack!

  11. #51
    Horsa's Avatar Eala! Nis þis lif lang
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    Default Re: [Preview] Kingdom of England

    Who came up with the idea of Normans having "Huscherles"?

  12. #52
    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: [Preview] Kingdom of England

    Quote Originally Posted by Horsa View Post
    Who came up with the idea of Normans having "Huscherles"?
    Anglo-Norman language.

  13. #53
    Lord Hamilton's Avatar Treun anns a' chath
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    Default Re: [Preview] Kingdom of England

    Quote Originally Posted by Horsa View Post
    Who came up with the idea of Normans having "Huscherles"?
    From the online Anglo-Norman Dictionary: "royal bodyguard: les huscherles (var. usecarles)"

    Basically, it appears that "Anglo-Norman" was definitely influenced by Saxon "Old English" - Huescherles is a perfect example. A combination of standard Old French spelling/pronunciation with what is clearly an English-derived word.

  14. #54
    beckyolt's Avatar Equites
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    Default Re: [Preview] Kingdom of England

    The Huscherles look amazing BTW. Well, all units do lol.
    ˙ǝsɐǝןd „ƃuıןןoɹʇ„ ǝuıɟǝp

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    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: [Preview] Kingdom of England

    one question - are you quite sure Huscherles are right term for post-Hastings England ?

    I was under impression household troops in 12-13th century England would be called "Familia regis".

    http://www.albion-swords.com/articles/norman.htm
    just one example. there are several texts about this on the net. if you google the term, you can find a lot more information.

  16. #56
    Lord Hamilton's Avatar Treun anns a' chath
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    Default Re: [Preview] Kingdom of England

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthæus View Post
    one question - are you quite sure Huscherles are right term for post-Hastings England ?

    I was under impression household troops in 12-13th century England would be called "Familia regis".

    http://www.albion-swords.com/articles/norman.htm
    just one example. there are several texts about this on the net. if you google the term, you can find a lot more information.
    I hear what you're saying there, and if we had chosen Latin as the default unit-name language for England, we would certainly have used that term. The thing is, however, that Anglo-Norman French was the more commonly used royal/noble tongue during the period of WotW. Latin was still used in some official documents, but by the reign of Edward I, Anglo-Norman began to serve as the official language of royal documents with the King's seal (docs from the Royal Chancellor continued to be in Latin until the end of the Middle Ages).

    Wikipedia has a great article on the language of High Medieval England: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Norman_language

  17. #57
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: [Preview] Kingdom of England

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Hamilton View Post
    I hear what you're saying there, and if we had chosen Latin as the default unit-name language for England, we would certainly have used that term. The thing is, however, that Anglo-Norman French was the more commonly used royal/noble tongue during the period of WotW. Latin was still used in some official documents, but by the reign of Edward I, Anglo-Norman began to serve as the official language of royal documents with the King's seal (docs from the Royal Chancellor continued to be in Latin until the end of the Middle Ages).

    Wikipedia has a great article on the language of High Medieval England: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Norman_language
    We did not quite understand each other. it is not a matter of the same term (housecarl) in various languages (variants like húskarlar, huscarl, huscherles). its a matter of 2 completely different terms.

    So real question is does the term housecarl in any of its variants exist after 1066. in the role of descripting royal bodyguards (retinue) of contemporary English kings ?

    It seems to me (and I could be wrong too) that the world "huscarl" became obsolete in its previous meaning along with disappearance of old Anglo-Saxon kingdom and its military organization after military defeat and death of Harold Godwinson (and other nobility of old kingdom which either died of fled the country in years after Hastings).

    PS
    I would like a source too. This is not to be a pain in the ass, but because I am one of those nerdy "I want to know more" guys.
    Last edited by Matthæus; March 30, 2012 at 09:21 AM.

  18. #58
    Lord Hamilton's Avatar Treun anns a' chath
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    Default Re: [Preview] Kingdom of England

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthæus View Post
    I would like a source too. This is not to be a pain in the ass, but because I am one of those nerdy "I want to know more" guys.
    No prob, here's the entry for "huescherle" in the Anglo-Norman online dictionary: link

    It's funny, upon further examination a name change might be necessary - not toward the Latin suggestion, but perhaps more along the lines of "garde des corps" or something (Anglo-Norman for "bodyguard" vs. "royal bodyguard"). I looked at the sources for "Huescherle" and they come from the works of Gaimar, a Norman chronicler writing during around the mid-12th century. I haven't found any additional references to huescherles after these mentions, and it is feasible that they are relatively recent holdovers from the Saxon period; although, Gaimar's chronicles were written ~70-80 years post-conquest.

    Personally, I kind of like huescherles, given that it represents both the Saxon and Norman traditions of England during the period. Garde des corps seems like it could work more for the other "Norman" or "French" royal factions (France - duh, Scottish nobility, etc.). I'd definitely be open to suggestions though .

  19. #59
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: [Preview] Kingdom of England

    Goal of this post is to provide ample evidence of use "Familia regis" is term that marks specific body of household troops, just as "Hussars" marks specific body of light cavalry. If you change the "Hussar" to "Light lancers" then the essence is lost in translation.

    Every time in those articles the term F.R. is used, with no reference to Housecarls at all after 1066. This is just not possible if the term "Housecarls" retained its former meaning - a king's household troops. What it meant for Normans was Anglo-Saxon (Harold's if you will) king's household, but not extending to those of Norman dynasty.

    Surely the word exist in Anglo-Norman, but this is a bad argument.
    For example you will find the word "Spahija" in Croatian dictionary. It means "Sipahi" (a clear derivation) - an Ottoman Turkish mounted warrior - but that does not prove that any unit in Croatian military system ever used that name for its own units, it only means that Croats used that world to describe a part of Ottoman warriors - their mortal enemies.


    Warfare Under the Anglo-Norman Kings 1066-1135 by Stephen Morillo



    ...his is a study of the warfare waged between 1066 and 1135 by the Anglo-Norman kings of England - William the Conqueror, William Rufus and Henry I. Bringing together the two major trends in recent medieval military history, the study of military organisations and the study of campaigns, Stephen Morillo illuminates the interrelationship of military organisation and social and political structures. The familia regis, the king's military household, emerges in a central role: its influence extended from castle garrisons, engineering and supply to the organisation of armies; its permanence and professionalism dictated tactical practices in battle. By contrast, the military importance of the feudal system is considerably reduced...

    from the same book, but I could not copy paste. but take a look here it says clearly:

    its 2 different things. booth meaning royal household troops, but in 2 different time periods and - 2 different kingdoms.

    more links:

    Problematics of military power: government, discipline and the subject of Subject of Violence by Michael S. Drake

    Anglo-Norman warfare: studies in late Anglo-Saxon and Anglo-Norman military by Matthew Strickland

    The Household Knights of King John by S. D. Church


    .................................................................................


    Norman conquest of England is one of rare examples of great discontinuity between old and new military traditions.
    As the Doomsday Book clearly shows by the last years of rule of William the Conqueror only 8% of land was in the hands of old Anglo-Saxon nobility. Meaning, without physical appearance of aristocracy of old, their military traditions were effectively dead. Byzantine Varangian guard has much more in common with fighting style of Housecarls than Anglo-Norman king's bodyguards. After all, more of surviving Anglo-Saxons went to exile in Constantinople (and other places) than remained in new king of England's service.

    Heavy cavalry lancers of Familia Regis fights in totally different way than their axe-swinging pedestrian Housecarls predecessors . and their organization is not the same either.
    after the fall of Anglo-saxon kingdom Huscarls are history just as Varangians are after the fall of Byzantine empire.
    Last edited by Matthæus; March 30, 2012 at 04:48 PM.

  20. #60
    Hresvelgr's Avatar Princeps Prior
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    Default Re: [Preview] Kingdom of England

    Yeah, I think familia regis might actually be the more proper and realistic term. The household knights of lords all across Europe were generally referred to as familia, so calling the bodyguard unit familia regis seems appropriate. Though Huscherles does give them a unique flavor from the continental knights.
    I'm not crazy, I'm the only one who's not crazy!


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