Thank you for the info
Quote:Good observation. Actually, however, the famed William Marshal was already dead by the time our mod begins - died 1219, WotW begins around 1250 or so. The coat of arms you see there actually comes from Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, who fought with Edward I at Falkirk against the Scots. (source).
The coat of arms is an interesting story; there are a few details on William Marshall's wikipedia entry, but I'm sure you could find additional info pretty easily via Google.
Basically, William Marshall's sons all died without male heirs to pass on their hereditary titles. As such, they were passed down through Marshall's female descendants, with the title of "Marshall" going to the Bigod family of Norfolk, while the De Valence family (depicted in the c. 1300 knights) inherited the Earldom of Pembroke.
Last edited by David93; March 01, 2012 at 04:07 AM.
Anglo-Norman Dictionary: "royal bodyguard: les huscherles (var. usecarles)"
Basically, it appears that "Anglo-Norman" was definitely influenced by Saxon "Old English" - Huescherles is a perfect example. A combination of standard Old French spelling/pronunciation with what is clearly an English-derived word.
one question - are you quite sure Huscherles are right term for post-Hastings England ?
I was under impression household troops in 12-13th century England would be called "Familia regis".
just one example. there are several texts about this on the net. if you google the term, you can find a lot more information.
Wikipedia has a great article on the language of High Medieval England: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Norman_language
So real question is does the term housecarl in any of its variants exist after 1066. in the role of descripting royal bodyguards (retinue) of contemporary English kings ?
It seems to me (and I could be wrong too) that the world "huscarl" became obsolete in its previous meaning along with disappearance of old Anglo-Saxon kingdom and its military organization after military defeat and death of Harold Godwinson (and other nobility of old kingdom which either died of fled the country in years after Hastings).
I would like a source too. This is not to be a pain in the ass, but because I am one of those nerdy "I want to know more" guys.
It's funny, upon further examination a name change might be necessary - not toward the Latin suggestion, but perhaps more along the lines of "garde des corps" or something (Anglo-Norman for "bodyguard" vs. "royal bodyguard"). I looked at the sources for "Huescherle" and they come from the works of Gaimar, a Norman chronicler writing during around the mid-12th century. I haven't found any additional references to huescherles after these mentions, and it is feasible that they are relatively recent holdovers from the Saxon period; although, Gaimar's chronicles were written ~70-80 years post-conquest.
Personally, I kind of like huescherles, given that it represents both the Saxon and Norman traditions of England during the period. Garde des corps seems like it could work more for the other "Norman" or "French" royal factions (France - duh, Scottish nobility, etc.). I'd definitely be open to suggestions though .
Goal of this post is to provide ample evidence of use "Familia regis" is term that marks specific body of household troops, just as "Hussars" marks specific body of light cavalry. If you change the "Hussar" to "Light lancers" then the essence is lost in translation.
Every time in those articles the term F.R. is used, with no reference to Housecarls at all after 1066. This is just not possible if the term "Housecarls" retained its former meaning - a king's household troops. What it meant for Normans was Anglo-Saxon (Harold's if you will) king's household, but not extending to those of Norman dynasty.
Surely the word exist in Anglo-Norman, but this is a bad argument.
For example you will find the word "Spahija" in Croatian dictionary. It means "Sipahi" (a clear derivation) - an Ottoman Turkish mounted warrior - but that does not prove that any unit in Croatian military system ever used that name for its own units, it only means that Croats used that world to describe a part of Ottoman warriors - their mortal enemies.
Warfare Under the Anglo-Norman Kings 1066-1135 by Stephen Morillo
...his is a study of the warfare waged between 1066 and 1135 by the Anglo-Norman kings of England - William the Conqueror, William Rufus and Henry I. Bringing together the two major trends in recent medieval military history, the study of military organisations and the study of campaigns, Stephen Morillo illuminates the interrelationship of military organisation and social and political structures. The familia regis, the king's military household, emerges in a central role: its influence extended from castle garrisons, engineering and supply to the organisation of armies; its permanence and professionalism dictated tactical practices in battle. By contrast, the military importance of the feudal system is considerably reduced...
from the same book, but I could not copy paste. but take a look here it says clearly:
its 2 different things. booth meaning royal household troops, but in 2 different time periods and - 2 different kingdoms.
Problematics of military power: government, discipline and the subject of Subject of Violence by Michael S. Drake
Anglo-Norman warfare: studies in late Anglo-Saxon and Anglo-Norman military by Matthew Strickland
The Household Knights of King John by S. D. Church
Norman conquest of England is one of rare examples of great discontinuity between old and new military traditions.
As the Doomsday Book clearly shows by the last years of rule of William the Conqueror only 8% of land was in the hands of old Anglo-Saxon nobility. Meaning, without physical appearance of aristocracy of old, their military traditions were effectively dead. Byzantine Varangian guard has much more in common with fighting style of Housecarls than Anglo-Norman king's bodyguards. After all, more of surviving Anglo-Saxons went to exile in Constantinople (and other places) than remained in new king of England's service.
Heavy cavalry lancers of Familia Regis fights in totally different way than their axe-swinging pedestrian Housecarls predecessors . and their organization is not the same either.
after the fall of Anglo-saxon kingdom Huscarls are history just as Varangians are after the fall of Byzantine empire.
Yeah, I think familia regis might actually be the more proper and realistic term. The household knights of lords all across Europe were generally referred to as familia, so calling the bodyguard unit familia regis seems appropriate. Though Huscherles does give them a unique flavor from the continental knights.
I'm not crazy, I'm the only one who's not crazy!
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