Why were archers the primary force in Achaemenid armies?

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Alexander's army had more in common with the Persians tactically, actually - the infantry being not the battle winner, but rather a platform for cavalry and light infantry to operate around.

In equipment massive Thracian influences can be seen.

[Aper]

We are aware of that. however, there are enough similarities that parallels can be drawn between most of the armies. After all, the Hoplite changed very little over the course of its history.

Well, for instance Cunaxa greeks were experienced professionals probably wearing the Iphikratean panoply, much lighter and suited for offensive than the old hoplitic one, and they were taken as an example that greeks could defeat persians in open field... in a discussion regarding the persian wars of early 5th, when much hoplites were amateurs wearing a very heavy equipment.

The same for the macedons: people discussing I or II persian war and someone pop up speaking of Alexander: wtf? You can't compare orange and apples...

I missed the whole archer-hoplites thing... any source? The only semi-good archer corps in mainland greece I was aware of were athenian embarked infantry, that cannot be labeled as hoplitic.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

But didn't all Athenian epibatai also fight in the phalanx when required? And those are exactly the ones I meant.

Either way, Cunaxa is no proof for anything - the evidence is quite convincing that the retreat of the left was a planned maneuver. Especially since Tissaphernes, the commander of that flank, was extremely richly rewarded, and that not once did anyone so much as attempt to engage the Greeks.

[Anakarsis]

But didn't all Athenian epibatai also fight in the phalanx when required? And those are exactly the ones I meant.

Epibatai fight in the Phalanxes yes, but i doubt that in the same battle in which they act as archers.....anyways, they could probably carry javelins as well as light hoplite equipment (they probably dont fight in the front lines anyways, but provide depth to the lines

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Indeed.

[Anakarsis]

About Cretans, i heard that, while they were elite mercenaries, AND archers, they were not elite archers. Their primary weapon was bow indeed, but they speciallized not in long-range, high-accuracy shooting with ability to keep at the frist lines (like Persian and Assyrian elite archers), but in what we now call Special Ops, professional raiders attacking enemy camp, supply lines, watchposts, etc.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

About Cretans, i heard that, while they were elite mercenaries, AND archers, they were not elite archers. Their primary weapon was bow indeed, but they speciallized not in long-range, high-accuracy shooting with ability to keep at the frist lines (like Persian and Assyrian elite archers), but in what we now call Special Ops, professional raiders attacking enemy camp, supply lines, watchposts, etc.

Indeed, they were more like light infantry. Persian takabara would be their match. Fun fact: the Iranian special forces are still called Takavar.

[Spike]

Indeed, they were more like light infantry. Persian takabara would be their match. Fun fact: the Iranian special forces are still called Takavar.

it will be funnier if they still carry sagaris axes

btw, in game, Persian Takabara in ROP is pretty much useless, they die too fast

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

it will be funnier if they still carry sagaris axes

btw, in game, Persian Takabara in ROP is pretty much useless, they die too fast

That's because you think everything is a hoplite. They are flanking troops, their attack is very high and AP. They are not meant to be used in a frontal engagement.

[Spike]

That's because you think everything is a hoplite. They are flanking troops, their attack is very high and AP. They are not meant to be used in a frontal engagement.

of course I know that

but die so fast from flanking Egyptian frickin spearmen? the levy spearmen one?

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

of course I know that

but die so fast from flanking Egyptian frickin spearmen? the levy spearmen one?

I haven't tried flanking Egyptians because they are always dead by the time I reach Egypt. I then have to kill countless hordes of Kyrenians. And Lydia always dies as well.

TBH I think the Egyptians should be beefed up a lot, since they were apparently able to field heavy infantry of their own after the Assyrian rule, as well as an extremely powerful navy.

[Spike]

I haven't tried flanking Egyptians because they are always dead by the time I reach Egypt. I then have to kill countless hordes of Kyrenians. And Lydia always dies as well.

TBH I think the Egyptians should be beefed up a lot, since they were apparently able to field heavy infantry of their own after the Assyrian rule, as well as an extremely powerful navy.

more likely has been displaced into Levant by kyrene I bet , Kemet did usually can invade Babylon-held areas, but rarely wrestle from Kyrene

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Kyrene was never a threat to Egypt. Their only act of any relevance to this mod was being easily subdued by Cambyses' generals.

There is no doubt hoplites are OP in this mod. While they were very powerful IRL they were not suitable for either open warfare or major campaigns.

[the persian Immortal]

Well, for instance Cunaxa greeks were experienced professionals probably wearing the Iphikratean panoply, much lighter and suited for offensive than the old hoplitic one, and they were taken as an example that greeks could defeat persians in open field... in a discussion regarding the persian wars of early 5th, when much hoplites were amateurs wearing a very heavy equipment.

The same for the macedons: people discussing I or II persian war and someone pop up speaking of Alexander: wtf? You can't compare orange and apples...

I missed the whole archer-hoplites thing... any source? The only semi-good archer corps in mainland greece I was aware of were athenian embarked infantry, that cannot be labeled as hoplitic.

a usefull post thx +rep

About Cretans, i heard that, while they were elite mercenaries, AND archers, they were not elite archers. Their primary weapon was bow indeed, but they speciallized not in long-range, high-accuracy shooting with ability to keep at the frist lines (like Persian and Assyrian elite archers), but in what we now call Special Ops, professional raiders attacking enemy camp, supply lines, watchposts, etc.

IMHO I think that the cretans were known as the best archers in the world from greek sources , and the reason is simple the greeks (esp herodotus) always like to exagerate their own race since they were racists so they exagerated the power of cretans simply cuz they were the best archers in the greek world, but again that's just IMHO I haven't doned any research about this.

Indeed, they were more like light infantry. Persian takabara would be their match. Fun fact: the Iranian special forces are still called Takavar.

takabara = tabardaran = axemen.
tabar + daran
axe + barrers

takavar = commando/rangers
tak + avar = unique/ #1

[Spike]

Kyrene was never a threat to Egypt. Their only act of any relevance to this mod was being easily subdued by Cambyses' generals.

There is no doubt hoplites are OP in this mod. While they were very powerful IRL they were not suitable for either open warfare or major campaigns.

I speak about in game terms they are actually the source of Egyptian headaches all in the campaing

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Yeah, they always destroy Egypt. I think Egypt must be made a bit stronger. Right now it's pretty useless.

[Anakarsis]

Kyrene was never a threat to Egypt. Their only act of any relevance to this mod was being easily subdued by Cambyses' generals.

There is no doubt hoplites are OP in this mod. While they were very powerful IRL they were not suitable for either open warfare or major campaigns.

AS Egypt had hoplites as Elite Mercenaries....could not be that they simply were able to field much more troops? traditionally egypt could field huge armies because of their well feed population....why dont make their current infantry more cheap to maintain, instead of giving them heavy troops?

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Dude, hoplites were used just like any other mercenaries, to bolster the existing armies. There seems to be this assumption that the fact that hoplites were used as mercenaries means they were something uberwtfpwn. When faced with facts the first response is always "but they were only strong because they were numerous". When will the retarded hoplite worshiping finally go away? They were just good infantry, that's it. The fact they were used doesn't mean they were the elite of the respective army, or even an important part.

Egyptians did not recruit from the general population, they had two warrior castes. Maybe the hoplites were used as an independent force, serving only the Pharaoh? They certainly gained the enmity of the soldiering classes.

[Spike]

the Egyptians of 26th dynasty use Greek mercenaries not because their skills, but primarily because they have professionalism and much more trustworthy than standing army provided by the Normachs, who had the tendency of backstabbing each others. At least the Greeks know to honour their previous bargain as long as they are paid as the contract say.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

the Egyptians of 26th dynasty use Greek mercenaries not because their skills, but primarily because they have professionalism and much more trustworthy than standing army provided by the Normachs, who had the tendency of backstabbing each others. At least the Greeks know to honour their previous bargain as long as they are paid as the contract say.

Now it's better. The warrior class and their commanders was professional, they just weren't reliable to have their stake with the king whenever he wanted it. As I said, they kept Greek, Lydian and Carian mercenaries to strengthen their hold on the throne. That said they also had mercenaries from Phoenicia, Nubia and North Africa.