Military mentality of Achaemenid leaders?

[TWWolfe]

That makes a lot of sense when you stop and think about it.

Things like that would be a lot more important to write down and keep track of than stories. And the Shanameh shows that oral traditions was sufficient to keep those alive without writing them down, and they also survived invasion where persian writing was removed.

Plus, if you think about it, i believe it was mentioned in another topic that most persians were more involved in governing/running the empire. so what is the thing they would be most likely to write down?

Business things.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Not administrative roles. Most Persians would've been illiterate herders and farmers, just like everyone else.

[Kitsunegari]

So you think an entire civilization used writing only for record keeping? Doesn't seem very plausible IMO. The various Mesopotamian peoples (and presumably the Elamites) who heavily influenced the Persians were highly literate. Pretty much every civilization that used writing developed some literary traditions, from Mesoamerica to China.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

The Mesopotamians did not develop sophisticated literary tradition either - they kept dry records of events and business.

[TWWolfe]

So you think an entire civilization used writing only for record keeping? Doesn't seem very plausible IMO. The various Mesopotamian peoples (and presumably the Elamites) who heavily influenced the Persians were highly literate. Pretty much every civilization that used writing developed some literary traditions, from Mesoamerica to China.

The five percent of people who were the ruling and administrative class were literate.

[The_Blacksmith]

The five percent of people who were the ruling and administrative class were literate.

and merchant class... evidence from Mespotamia shows Mechants keeping tap on their exports and inports in Cuneiform... which many persians did too...

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

The five percent of people who were the ruling and administrative class were literate.

5%? That's way too high a number of nobles. Nonles generally don't form more than 1% of the society.

[TWWolfe]

5%? That's way too high a number of nobles. Nonles generally don't form more than 1% of the society.

Yeah, but you get the idea I'm trying to convey.

Almost all of the people in the empire did not read or write.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Yes. Unlike the Greeks, who had exceptionally high literacy levels.

[century x]

Yes. Unlike the Greeks, who had exceptionally high literacy levels.

And who's 80 - 90% of population were slaves. It's easy to teach 10% of the population to read and write.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Wrong. No more than 30% of the Greek population were ever unfree.

[TWWolfe]

Wrong. No more than 30% of the Greek population were ever unfree.

And quite a few of the slaves were literate as well. Slavery in greece was more like live-in butler than chain-gangs for the most part.

[Drtad]

The Mesopotamians did not develop sophisticated literary tradition either - they kept dry records of events and business.

The Mesopotamians had A LOT of literature that had nothing to do with business and it certainly was not dry. You can find some here.

http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/

[century x]

Pretty much the entire middle east did not know how to read or write. The center of the universe was Greece. The Greeks viewed anybody else that did not know Greek as barbarians illiterate farmers. That needed saving from the Greeks and the only way of advancing themselves is if they learn the Greek way of life and be Greek and everything Greek.

Every civilization back then were backwards. EVERY SINGLE ONE including Greek. Last time I checked the Persian civilization never killed new borns. Last time I checked they upheld human rights above all. (Or was the Cyrus cylinder fake). One of the first civilizations to abolish slavery and pay their workers to build their buildings. YET they didn't know how to read.

I'm all for arguments and all. But you make the Persians seem like these back wards people that needed saving from other cultures.

No matter how I view it. I always say if the Greeks were so smart and so civilized. Then why were they unable to form any kind of (long lasting empire or Republic). There was 10 million city states and they all fought each other constantly. They had their moments but as usual 10 minutes after they gain some land they lost it completely due to their inability or understanding on how to run an Empire.

And also the Greeks held slavery above all. 30% of their population was slaves according to you. That is way to low a number

I quote Georg W.F. Hegel.
The Persian Empire is an empire in the modern sense – like that which existed in Germany, and the great imperial realm under the sway of Napoleon; for we find it consisting of a number of states, which are indeed dependant, but which have retained their own individuality, their manners, and laws. The general enactments, binding upon all, did not infringe upon their political and social idiosyncrasies, but even protected and maintained them; so that each of the nations that constitute the whole, had its own form of constitution. As light illuminates everything – imparting to each object a peculiar vitality – so the Persian Empire extends over a multitude of nations, and leaves to each one its particular character. Some have even kings of their own; each one its distinct language, arms, way of life and customs. All this diversity coexists harmoniously under the impartial dominion of Light... a combination of peoples – leaving each of them free. Thereby, a stop is put to that barbarism and ferocity with which the nations had been wont to carry on their destructive feuds.

I also quote Will Durant
For thousands of years Persians have been creating beauty. Sixteen centuries before Christ there went from these regions or near it... You have been here a kind of watershed of civilization, pouring your blood and thought and art and religion eastward and westward into the world... I need not rehearse for you again the achievements of your Achaemenid period. Then for the first time in known history an empire almost as extensive as the United States received an orderly government, a competence of administration, a web of swift communications, a security of movement by men and goods on majestic roads, equaled before our time only by the zenith of Imperial Rome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaemenid_Empire
At the bottom of this page there is a little paragraph that is interesting.

The Achaemenid Empire left a lasting impression on the heritage, and the cultural identity of Asia and Middle East as well as influencing the development, and structure of the future empires. In fact the Greeks and later on the Romans copied the best features of the Persian method of governing the empire, and vicariously adopted them.

[Drtad]

I'm all for arguments and all. But you make the Persians seem like these back wards people that needed saving from other cultures.

I don't think that's what roach is trying to say.

That said, I think you're right on the other points. The Achaemenid Persians, influenced by the Mesopotamians who had a rich culture of literature (the idea that Mesopotamian writing was largely dry reporting is advocated by people like Mark T. Gilderhus in his book History and Historians, but I don't buy that), likely had literature, it was simply lost like Sumerian was lost after the 1st century AD. It's not a farfetched idea at all, and is highly probable.

Just because the Greeks weren't aware and didn't report on the inner machinations of the Persian military doesn't mean Persian commanders were laid back and watched as they sent waves of conscripts to die.

[century x]

Just because the Greeks weren't aware and didn't report on the inner machinations of the Persian military doesn't mean Persian commanders were laid back and watched as they sent waves of conscripts to die.

Thank you

[Kitsunegari]

The Mesopotamians did not develop sophisticated literary tradition either - they kept dry records of events and business.

Wow! Totally ignorant, read "Ancient Iraq" by Georges Roux, literature of all kinds flourished throughout Mesopotamian history.

[the persian Immortal]

Thank you

good point

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Pretty much the entire middle east did not know how to read or write. The center of the universe was Greece. The Greeks viewed anybody else that did not know Greek as barbarians illiterate farmers. That needed saving from the Greeks and the only way of advancing themselves is if they learn the Greek way of life and be Greek and everything Greek.

Every civilization back then were backwards. EVERY SINGLE ONE including Greek. Last time I checked the Persian civilization never killed new borns. Last time I checked they upheld human rights above all. (Or was the Cyrus cylinder fake). One of the first civilizations to abolish slavery and pay their workers to build their buildings. YET they didn't know how to read.

I'm all for arguments and all. But you make the Persians seem like these back wards people that needed saving from other cultures.

No matter how I view it. I always say if the Greeks were so smart and so civilized. Then why were they unable to form any kind of (long lasting empire or Republic). There was 10 million city states and they all fought each other constantly. They had their moments but as usual 10 minutes after they gain some land they lost it completely due to their inability or understanding on how to run an Empire.

And also the Greeks held slavery above all. 30% of their population was slaves according to you. That is way to low a number

I quote Georg W.F. Hegel.
The Persian Empire is an empire in the modern sense – like that which existed in Germany, and the great imperial realm under the sway of Napoleon; for we find it consisting of a number of states, which are indeed dependant, but which have retained their own individuality, their manners, and laws. The general enactments, binding upon all, did not infringe upon their political and social idiosyncrasies, but even protected and maintained them; so that each of the nations that constitute the whole, had its own form of constitution. As light illuminates everything – imparting to each object a peculiar vitality – so the Persian Empire extends over a multitude of nations, and leaves to each one its particular character. Some have even kings of their own; each one its distinct language, arms, way of life and customs. All this diversity coexists harmoniously under the impartial dominion of Light... a combination of peoples – leaving each of them free. Thereby, a stop is put to that barbarism and ferocity with which the nations had been wont to carry on their destructive feuds.

I also quote Will Durant
For thousands of years Persians have been creating beauty. Sixteen centuries before Christ there went from these regions or near it... You have been here a kind of watershed of civilization, pouring your blood and thought and art and religion eastward and westward into the world... I need not rehearse for you again the achievements of your Achaemenid period. Then for the first time in known history an empire almost as extensive as the United States received an orderly government, a competence of administration, a web of swift communications, a security of movement by men and goods on majestic roads, equaled before our time only by the zenith of Imperial Rome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaemenid_Empire
At the bottom of this page there is a little paragraph that is interesting.

The Achaemenid Empire left a lasting impression on the heritage, and the cultural identity of Asia and Middle East as well as influencing the development, and structure of the future empires. In fact the Greeks and later on the Romans copied the best features of the Persian method of governing the empire, and vicariously adopted them.

Why are you so ridiculously defensive? I never said any of that. I am just setting some matters straight - there is no evidence what-so-ever of a Persian equivalent to Herodotus' histories or the Illiad (ok, maybe the Shahname qualifies for the latter, but no Herodotus).

[DarthLazy]

Shahname is beyond the Achaeminid time frame.