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Thread: Military mentality of Achaemenid leaders?

  1. #21
    Rinan's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Military mentality of Achaemenid leaders?

    Quote Originally Posted by the persian Immortal View Post
    well herodotus are not a good source , specially when it comes to numbers , I mean come on he said that xarxes army inclouded 3,000,000 men......
    True, true. My point was, that if Heredotus reports 20 000 casualties, then the real casualties would probably have been more than just a few hundred. But there's no way to know for sure, after all.
    Last edited by Ishan; November 18, 2011 at 09:22 AM. Reason: off-topic

  2. #22
    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Military mentality of Achaemenid leaders?

    Dude, you just physically can't kill more than a few dozen guys in an hour in such a narrow place.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Military mentality of Achaemenid leaders?

    Well, Barry Strauss reports in one of his books that Xerxes excited the spirits of the persians with a declamation that goes like this (more or less):"With the bow I'm very good, both on horse and on foot: I'm a good archer. With the spear I'm very good, both on horse and on foot: I'm a good lancer. I'm good in riding, I'm a good cavalrymen."

    Moreover, we know that Cyrus was wounded to death by an arrow during an expedition against the Scythians...

    I guess these are all proof that demonstrate that a Persian leader was a good warrior and it happened to them to fight if there was the necessity. I guess they behave in a similar way to what Julius Caesar did centuries later: he was a commander, he leaded his men by giving them orders, but often it happened to him to fight in the first line (even though this was not the roman way of warfare for a commander).

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Military mentality of Achaemenid leaders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cinuz View Post
    Well, Barry Strauss reports in one of his books that Xerxes excited the spirits of the persians with a declamation that goes like this (more or less):"With the bow I'm very good, both on horse and on foot: I'm a good archer. With the spear I'm very good, both on horse and on foot: I'm a good lancer. I'm good in riding, I'm a good cavalrymen."

    Moreover, we know that Cyrus was wounded to death by an arrow during an expedition against the Scythians...

    I guess these are all proof that demonstrate that a Persian leader was a good warrior and it happened to them to fight if there was the necessity. I guess they behave in a similar way to what Julius Caesar did centuries later: he was a commander, he leaded his men by giving them orders, but often it happened to him to fight in the first line (even though this was not the roman way of warfare for a commander).
    of course, we all know about that, it's allready on ROP's description of general's bodyguard I remember

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  5. #25
    Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze's Avatar Occasio mihi fertur
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    Default Re: Military mentality of Achaemenid leaders?

    ^The thing of Darius (iirc it was Darius, not Xerxes. Could be that the statement is disputed) saying "as an bowman, I am a good bowman etc etc" is also a loading screen quote in the RoPIII alpha-soon-to-be-beta

  6. #26
    Rinan's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Military mentality of Achaemenid leaders?

    Did Cyrus march against the Scythians? I thought that was Darius...

    Dude, you just physically can't kill more than a few dozen guys in an hour in such a narrow place.
    How narrow is the gap you're thinking about? A metre? Just because it was a chokepoint doesn't mean that only one man at a time could go through the place.

    @Cinus: Just because he said he was good with the bow & at riding doesn't mean he was capable of succesfuly fighting in the frontline. Probably the Achaemenid generals got some experience from hunting and whatnot, but I can't really see them fighting in the frontlines. But who knows!

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Military mentality of Achaemenid leaders?

    Did Cyrus march against the Scythians? I thought that was Darius.
    Both did, iirc. Cyrus was killed fighting them and Darius subdued them.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Military mentality of Achaemenid leaders?

    According to Wikipedia Cyrus died in a battle against the Messagatea, people from Khwarezm related to the Scyths. Darius did subdue the Scythians, but never conquered them. He turned back with his troops before too many of them would die of fatigue and hunger. The steppes aren't really good at providing a whole army, I suppose! Anyway, seems you were pretty much right (of course )

  9. #29

    Default Re: Military mentality of Achaemenid leaders?

    Darius failed to subjugate the Scythians in what is now Romania/Ukraine and his army only escaped b/c the loyal Ionians didn't destroy the bridge over the Danube (the traitor Miltiades wanted to destroy it to leave them stranded)

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    Default Re: Military mentality of Achaemenid leaders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rinan View Post
    According to Wikipedia Cyrus died in a battle against the Messagatea, people from Khwarezm related to the Scyths. Darius did subdue the Scythians, but never conquered them. He turned back with his troops before too many of them would die of fatigue and hunger. The steppes aren't really good at providing a whole army, I suppose! Anyway, seems you were pretty much right (of course )
    He conquered Saka Tigrakhauda, who lived along the Caspian. He pulled back from the lands of the Saka Paradaya, who lived along the Black sea.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Military mentality of Achaemenid leaders?

    Messagatea, people from Khwarezm related to the Scyths
    The term "Scythians" is confusing, as the Greeks use it as a name for both the tribes living around the Black sea *as well as* the larger "umbrella" of tribes those guys (and the Mazaka) belonged to (as can be seen in the name the Persians gave to both tribes - Saka Tigrakhauda and Saka Paradaya).

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Military mentality of Achaemenid leaders?

    Actually, by Herodotus' time "Σκύθαι" was only applied to a Saka kingdom centered around the Black sea, the Paradraya. All other Iranian nomads were called "Σακαι".

    It was a Roman practice to call everyone "Scythian".
    Last edited by Blatta Optima Maxima; October 30, 2011 at 01:48 PM.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Military mentality of Achaemenid leaders?

    ^The translation is what matters, as "Sakai" as also translated to Scythians in everything you can find on the internet.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Military mentality of Achaemenid leaders?

    There is a difference, though.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Military mentality of Achaemenid leaders?

    ^Not for the poor people surfing the net trying to figure out what is going on it ain't.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Military mentality of Achaemenid leaders?

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Rinan View Post
    Did Cyrus march against the Scythians? I thought that was Darius...

    How narrow is the gap you're thinking about? A metre? Just because it was a chokepoint doesn't mean that only one man at a time could go through the place.
    well I have heard that thermopeal was so narrow that only one chariot at a time can pass thrue it (two chariots would be able to pass at the same time)
    @Cinus: Just because he said he was good with the bow & at riding doesn't mean he was capable of succesfuly fighting in the frontline. Probably the Achaemenid generals got some experience from hunting and whatnot, but I can't really see them fighting in the frontlines. But who knows!
    true but how can we define the word good worrior then when darius says that "I'm a good spearmen both on horse back and on foot ect" that means that the guy got some skills , so was cyrus and other kings of persia cuz as you know all persian nobles served in the arastibara ranks (or kara arastibara) so darius like any other persian noble served in the arastibara and was given hard and though training ... IIRC I have posted a link in this forum from there you can get informations about persian nobles training ,

    Quote Originally Posted by Cinuz View Post
    Well, Barry Strauss reports in one of his books that Xerxes excited the spirits of the persians with a declamation that goes like this (more or less):"With the bow I'm very good, both on horse and on foot: I'm a good archer. With the spear I'm very good, both on horse and on foot: I'm a good lancer. I'm good in riding, I'm a good cavalrymen."

    Moreover, we know that Cyrus was wounded to death by an arrow during an expedition against the Scythians...

    I guess these are all proof that demonstrate that a Persian leader was a good warrior and it happened to them to fight if there was the necessity. I guess they behave in a similar way to what Julius Caesar did centuries later: he was a commander, he leaded his men by giving them orders, but often it happened to him to fight in the first line (even though this was not the roman way of warfare for a commander).
    I belive that you're talking about darius but beside that nice post I like it
    Quote Originally Posted by Blatta Optima Maxima View Post
    So you have reached the "NANANANANA I AM NOT LIZTENING, YOU ARE WRONG" phase. Just a couple of posts back you were bragging about how the Persians lost because of their inferiority, now you're saying you don't care?
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  17. #37

    Default Re: Military mentality of Achaemenid leaders?

    They likely had a few competent-to excellent generals,(you can't keep an empire that size together if everyone is terrible at what they do) but its was a freaking huge empire, and you had the king commanding personally in important battles. So its likely they served on the distant borders and didn't fight battles that made it into the records, or they ended up serving under people, rather than commanding armies themselves.

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  18. #38

    Default Re: Military mentality of Achaemenid leaders?

    When talking about Persian culture or military ways. I don't take into consideration Greek sources. They are extremely biased and to be honest(racist).

    Persian commanders used their intelligence like every other commander on the battle field. Roman, Chinese, etc.

    Persians traditionally are horsed based armies with of course infantry. Unfortunately many ancient sources do not talk about the mentality of the Commanders. Usually the sources talk about the sheer size of the Persian army and that the numbers will achieve the victory. Which is never true

    Cyrus the Great was a brilliant battle field commander and I will use the Battle of Opis as an example.

    He completely routed the Babylonian army and they were never able to resist the Persian Army again. Also interesting about this battle is the sources that tell us about it. The ancient Greek sources do not even mention this historic and epic battle. But yet Persian and Babylonian sources do mention it in some what good detail. Why did the Greeks not mention it?(The answer is, I have no idea) could be biased could not be
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  19. #39

    Default Re: Military mentality of Achaemenid leaders?

    Quote Originally Posted by century x View Post
    Cyrus the Great was a brilliant battle field commander and I will use the Battle of Opis as an example.

    He completely routed the Babylonian army and they were never able to resist the Persian Army again. Also interesting about this battle is the sources that tell us about it. The ancient Greek sources do not even mention this historic and epic battle. But yet Persian and Babylonian sources do mention it in some what good detail. Why did the Greeks not mention it?(The answer is, I have no idea) could be biased could not be
    It helped that the Babylonian Empire at that time was not in a particularly stable state. Especially due to the strange behavior of Nabonidus compared to his predecessors (leaving Belshazzar as regent while going to Taymah in Arabia and following the god Nannar/Sin in an almost henotheistic fashion).

  20. #40
    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Military mentality of Achaemenid leaders?

    The Achaemenid army was not cavalry based. It's core was ethnic Persian infantry.

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