Lorica Segmentata versus Lorica Hamata

[Diocle]

So if I make a coat out of cardboard plates, it's better than mail just because it's 'plate armor'?

Seriously, someone needs to calm down and accept they're wrong.

Why cardboard plates? Maybe.. baked clay?.. or wait!... plastic plates?
Then you could take them to Biennale of Art in Venice, create a good title for this artistic creation like...."Blatta in the plates" and obtain great fame as the new Concept Artist of the moment!!!!
In that future day remember of us and our great suggestion!!! (the royalties.....Blatta!!!)

Sith5DarthLazy you are right! so I'll try to give some form of practical back up:


Practical exemple:
Tester Blatta (o.c. voluntary tester!) and a big guy of the same physical proportions of a normal germanic worrior of the time.

Offensive Equipment for the test: big germanic wood club/mace like one of those used by the low condition worriors of a germanic warband of the time we are examining.

Defensive equipment, two objects:
1) a good mail coif like those used by Sassanids and by the Romans in this age.
2) An helmet of good iron or bronze plate like an Imperial Italic H.

Test consist, if possible, in two phases with 2 sub-phases:

A-1) Blatta put on Mail Coif first ()

A-2) The great guy with the great germanic wood-club/mace strikes the immoble, poor Blatta with all his strength on the head.

Now, if his physical condition let him to continue the test:

B-1) Blatta, removed the Mail Coif, will put on (what remain of) his head the Imperial H plate helmet.

B-2) Exactly like phase A): great guy, great german wood club/mace, great strike on the head!
now we can compare the results of the test checking the conditions of:

1)Mail Coif and Imp. Helmet H

2)The head of Blatta (or what remain of it)

3)Asking Blatta (if is in condition to give some sensible answer)
which one of the two kinds of protective equipment, Mail Coif or Plate Helmet, on his unquestionable judgement, is the best!

The test is simple, absolutely verifiable, and in the end relatively low cost for guys which attend some reenactment (wrong spell?) group.

Oh I forgot to say that would be better to have present some medical personal with first aid equipment!

Iforgot to say that the test might be repeated with other sort of defensive equipment:

Club/mace vs. Lorica Segmantata Newstead /Lorica Hamata / Strke on the back

Club/mace vs. Laminated Manica (as those of Clibanarii)arm defense / Mailed arm defense / Strike on arm

Obviously we would need new testers! ( I'm out)

ciao Blatta!

[5th Lieutenant]

My small contribution from my day-job as a defence consultant:

- Military equipment is selected not on the basis of what performs best in combat, but what is good enough and sustainable on a given budget against a range of operations in the face of various, often disparate threats

- Fashions of what is best change and work in conjunction with strategic, operational and tactical philosophies

- Economic concerns, including awarding contracts based on local relationships, remains common and may well have been back then

- Keeping a sufficient force moderately well equipped is usually seen as more important than keeping a small number very well equipped

- The best equipment – at a tactical level – is often therefore discarded unless there is overwhelming need for it

- This is true even in an era of professional armies and a civilian-military contract where the civilian government is answerable for short-changing its troops

What do we know about the introduction of Segmentata?

- It originated some time after Actium, where the Pax Romana is being re-established, force size is reduced and professionalization is on the rise

- We don't know how common it ever was

- Tax revenues and the economy are growing

- The enemy are a mix of massed warbands (the West) and missile opponents (the East)

- No source claims that Hamata is necessarily inferior (though it might well be); though the capabilities to manufacture it are probably well established

- There were large numbers of cheaper Auxilia to make good the shortfall in Legionary numbers and capability, probably using hamata

- The Scutum is shortened, possible as a recognition that it is of less utility when wielded by a well-trained Legionary in good quality armour

- Segmentata is a more complicated armour, using one if not two metal types plus leather and being more fitted to work effectively; it might therefore be more maintenance intensive and hence expensive both to buy and maintain

- It was a time of larger, set-piece encounters with large, traditional Legions and their supporting infrastructure

I hasten to add that this is all inferred, but based on fact where possible


What do we know about the apparent decline of Segmentata?

- We don't know how common it ever was

- It seems to fall out of usage in the mid-3rd Century

- This was a time (following the Antonine plague) of declining manpower and economic activity

- This was a time of civil war, likely to result in further loss of professional soldiers and waste of money that might have gone towards equipping a unified army

- Surviving Emperors are likely to have looked for armour that was more easily produced and maintained and - if at all possible - cheaper

- Surviving units may have had less time and inclination for maintenance and repair of more complex armour

- Army size seems to have grown by around 50%, with a reduction in the size of core units and hence their support infrastructure

- Shields change to the slightly taller, Auxillia pattern

- Enemy are split between larger, unarmoured Horde / warbands (West) with some heavy cavalry and lighter infantry with missile and shock cavalry (East)

- Army re-organised around larger central groupings having to march a considerable distance to fight a set-piece battle and small, boarder protection units; maintainability may hence have trumped combat performance in armour selection


My personal views is that Segmentata, properly fitted and maintained, is better protection for the individual Legionary in close (late Republic, early Empire) combat. However, this became less relevant in a combined arms force as part of a larger army with a mixture of professional levels and potentially recuced supporting infrastructure but better missile / cavalry support set against the backdrop of a waning economy.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Diocle, a lorica segmentata is nowhere near medieval plate armor.


Go read this article:
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_mail.html

[DarthLazy]

Why ? Its shiny and looks cool. Lets get some Urban Cohorts and pwn all them barbarians now.

[Diocle]

Why ? Its shiny and looks cool. Lets get some Urban Cohorts and pwn all them barbarians now.

For the second time, I'm in agreement with your words!

Sith5DarthLazy is a great man!


For Blatta:
Blatta precious words: "Lorica Segmentata is nowhere near Medieval plate armour"

Thanks Blatta you changed the intere course of my life, maybe before your precious words, I already suspected that the age of Lorenzo De'Medici was a different age from that of Augustus, maybe also I already suspected that the tecnology of iron in XIV c. and XV c. Italy or Germany was different from that of the Roman Fabricae of the I c., II c. or III c., maybe I already suspected that the look of a Lorica Segmentata type Kalkriese, Corbridge or Newstead was very different from the plate armours of the Milanese and Florentine knights depicted in the magnificent paintings of Paolo Uccello titled "La Battaglia di San Romano", but now you gave me the certainty! and this is an important thing!!!! Your words finally enlighten my limited and poor mind!!! Now, due to your intelligent suggestions, I finally understand the difference between the XIV century after the Birth of our Lord Jesus Christ and the the first century in which our Lord Jesus Christ was born!!! again thanks!!!


Thanks and ciao!.... Blatta!!!

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Dude... He was ing trolling.


For the last time...

READ THIS GODDAMN ARTICLE

[DarthLazy]

That was gold. Pure gold.

[Diocle]

That was gold. Pure gold.

Sith5DarthLazy, I confirm you are a great man!

For Blatta: Sorry my dear, I was joking, I think that sometime we are too serious, sometime a bit of fun may help!
Anyway, if I offended you, please excuse me!
Trolling isn't exactly the reason for which I'm here, I hate Trolls! Trolls aren't good persons!!

Dante Alighieri:

"Fatti non fummo per viver come bruti,
ma per seguir virtù et conoscenza..."


Peace, Love!!!......ciao! ...Blatta!

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

If metallic plate armour in the style of segmented plate was so good then why the almost whole scale transition from that form of armour to mail, scale and muscle cuirasses in the 4th Century? There was no revival in segmented armour until the medieval period. Mail armour could be made very quickly by a team in one of the state fabracae, it was very easy to repair on the battle field, provided excellent protection against cutting blows, which most barbarian swords were designed to do, and with a thorocomachus worn under it it afforded very good protection against arrows and sword thrusts.

This was an argument brought up by Wulfgar and its become a bit old hat and boring now to be quite frank.

Agreed.

LS is made thinner than most people think historically, I know how it was made because I know people who make it. It's in reality offering no better protection than Hamata does.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

So I guess you agree with me - by being in the team Hamata?

[Diocle]

So I guess you agree with me - by being in the team Hamata?

So you are a enlisting and counting new (and old) troops for your diabolical Hamata Army!!!

Well,..Well,...Well....

But remember! you will find a steel plate (no! not cardbord plates!) ready for you, and then we will see....

Ready to fight, again!!

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Either way My scorpio would still kill 2-or 3 people in one shot no matter how you're armored.

[Diocle]

Either way My scorpio would still kill 2-or 3 people in one shot no matter how you're armored.

Great, truly great observation!!!!

I read this post and I saw Indiana Jones killing that big Arab guy equipped with that large scimitar!!!

This is why I love USA, pragmatism, open mind and clear thinking, great! ( I'm not joking!), God bless T.Jefferson and USA people!!!

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Either way My scorpio would still kill 2-or 3 people in one shot no matter how you're armored.

Yeah.

Scorpiones were the Roman equivalent of .50 cal anti-personnel/materiel rifles.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Intervention is better than the Barrett.

Also, if you watch videos a scorpio will crack concrete, and pierce plate or chainmail, go through ballistics jelly, pierce it out the back, and then pierce it again and eitther stick or come out the back again and then pierce and stick. It's great, and it also has many factors playing into it like weather, tension on the springs etc. etc.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Great, truly great observation!!!!

I read this post and I saw Indiana Jones killing that big Arab guy equipped with that large scimitar!!!

This is why I love USA, pragmatism, open mind and clear thinking, great! ( I'm not joking!), God bless T.Jefferson and USA people!!!

your view of Americans is what everyone here wants, but is horribly wrong. Most americans are so one sided and partisan that its... undescribable. And a lot of us are stuck in our ways.

Strange that Mosloms are considered one of the most Tolerant people on the Planet and Christians one of the most intolerant. That expalins America, and why everyone trys to force their beliefs down my throat because I'm not one of them...

Screw this lets Nuke America, and start all over. But with More Guns.

[wulfgar610]

The interesting thing is the segmenta came into vogue in the two centuries when providing security for the Roman Empire was at its relative easiest. Certainly the segmenta looks magnificent and must been great for parades.

My guess is it was the continous German wars of Marcus Aurelius that showed up the strategic inadequacy of segmenta compared to maile. Maile simply proved easier to supply and maintain in hard fought campaigns.

Segmenta most likely provided superior protection initially, but the reliability of maile equipment proved the more important factor on the battlefield.

[First Citizen Gallienus]

The interesting thing is the segmenta came into vogue in the two centuries when providing security for the Roman Empire was at its relative easiest. Certainly the segmenta looks magnificent and must been great for parades.

My guess is it was the continous German wars of Marcus Aurelius that showed up the strategic inadequacy of segmenta compared to maile. Maile simply proved easier to supply and maintain in hard fought campaigns.

Segmenta most likely provided superior protection initially, but the reliability of maile equipment proved the more important factor on the battlefield.

I like this post. It kind of conjures up an image of Rome as basically the mediterranean police force in riot gear. The Judge Dredds of the ancient world lol.

[Gen.jamesWolfe]

The interesting thing is the segmenta came into vogue in the two centuries when providing security for the Roman Empire was at its relative easiest. Certainly the segmenta looks magnificent and must been great for parades.

My guess is it was the continous German wars of Marcus Aurelius that showed up the strategic inadequacy of segmenta compared to maile. Maile simply proved easier to supply and maintain in hard fought campaigns.

Segmenta most likely provided superior protection initially, but the reliability of maile equipment proved the more important factor on the battlefield.

that was probably it.

it certainly makes sense to me. mail armor after-all is in the long run, a cheaper armor: to clean and maintain it is pretty easy (from what I remember you just need a bag of sawdust), it is only slightly less effective (the weakness being against stab wounds), and from my uncle I've learned that with a belt at the waist, it is actually pretty comfortable (otherwise IIRC it seems to put some weight on the shoulders).