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Thread: Ideal Units and Tactics

  1. #1

    Default Ideal Units and Tactics

    As the tactical person on the team, I'm very interested to hear what unit combinations you are using in your individual campaigns, and the success that you're having based on your choices of formations.

    I am wondering what you think is the best defensive army, the best offensive army, and the best sieging army from the early period that you can reasonably muster in your Rule Britannia kingdoms.

    In particular, there is little research on taking loose versus tight formations, and I would love to hear your empirical evidence from battles that indicate the success based on this tactic.

  2. #2
    AJStoner's Avatar Lord of Entropy
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    Default Re: Ideal Units and Tactics

    My favorite tactic, generally speaking, is to have a front line of lighter infantry to absorb the initial impact and tie-up the enemy battle line with a unit of spears or pikes at the ends to help protect against enemy cavalry circumventing my lines.

    I place my heavier infantry in the next rank so they can be moved-in as needed to reinforce the front line or take advantage of holes in the enemy line. I tend to put the best troops of line two on the wings; if you can start to roll the enemy up like a carpet it's all over for him.

    My missile troops make up my third line with skirmish mode off (only turn it on if my line becomes compromised) and in guard mode so they can decimate reinforcements and cavalry.

    My own cavalry gets divided into two groups on either wing, ideally comprised of heavy and light horses on each side. The light horses can deal with enemy skirmishers and be sent after missile troops once the enemy's main forces are engaged. My heavy cavalry waits until they are needed to help smash the enemy's wings from behind or attack targets of opportunity like generals. Having them behind the enemy line when they break is also helpful in maximizing casualties when my foe routs. If they don't survive they can't attack you again...


    Spr LInf LInf LInf LInf LInf Spr
    LCav HInf HInf HInf HInf LCav
    HCav M M M M Hcav
    General




    Last edited by AJStoner; October 16, 2011 at 05:11 PM.

    *MEMBER OF THE HOUSE OF HADER* *UNDER THE CRUEL & MERCILESS PATRONAGE OF y2day*

  3. #3

    Default Re: Ideal Units and Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by AJStoner View Post
    My favorite tactic, generally speaking, is to have a front line of lighter infantry to absorb the initial impact and tie-up the enemy battle line with a unit of spears or pikes at the ends to help protect against enemy cavalry circumventing my lines.

    I place my heavier infantry in the next rank so they can be moved-in as needed to reinforce the front line or take advantage of holes in the enemy line. I tend to put the best troops of line two on the wings; if you can start to roll the enemy up like a carpet it's all over for him.

    My missile troops make up my third line with skirmish mode off (only turn it on if my line becomes compromised) and in guard mode so they can decimate reinforcements and cavalry.

    My own cavalry gets divided into two groups on either wing, ideally comprised of heavy and light horses on each side. The light horses can deal with enemy skirmishers and be sent after missile troops once the enemy's main forces are engaged. My heavy cavalry waits until they are needed to help smash the enemy's wings from behind or attack targets of opportunity like generals. Having them behind the enemy line when they break is also helpful in maximizing casualties when my foe routs. If they don't survive they can't attack you again...
    EDIT: Added a graphic of AJ Stoner's Heavy Infantry Carpet Roll. I heard that term for the first time during HBO's Rome at the defeat of General Pompey by General Julius Caesar. Never knew what it meant before.

    I bolded the blue portion. That is not what I choose to do, but an excellent strategy. It's particularly good if you're using stakes in front of the spearmen, as therefore the cavalry cannot pin else risk dangerously crashing into the stakes. The heavy infantry units will pin instead, and if done on both wings can crush the centerline.

    I usually put do almost the exact same formation, but put my heavy infantry in the middle of the second line. That means they can help my middle from buckling, but your ways has a lot of merit to it.

    I place Stakes down first with my longbows (LB) at the centerline. They will lay down suppressing fire to advancing archers and move when the archers or enemy is within Crossbow (CB) range. Then the longbows move to behind the light Cav (LCav) and prepare to deal with archers as they are more effective routing them. The longbows and the crossbows are both firing by that time, and the enemy is closing but screened by the stakes. Any that get though will be dealt with my spearmen and usually the heavy infantry advance to the centerline, but I like you idea, a lot. My heavy cavalry advance in front of the longbows so all of them can continue firing, especially at routers, since my stakes interfere with my cavalry flanking until they get a bit down the field. Zealous heavy cavalry even the general might come down and attack the wings so my heavy cav protect that spot, sometimes they can dangerously nudge the general into the stakes, but it is iffy.

    Stakes

    Spr Spr Spr Spr Spr Spr
    LCav LInf HInf HInf LInf LCav
    LB LB CB CB LB LB
    H Cav General HCav

    With your permission AJ, I'll add the heavy infantry carpet roll to the tactical manual.
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; October 16, 2011 at 05:32 PM.

  4. #4
    AJStoner's Avatar Lord of Entropy
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    Default Re: Ideal Units and Tactics

    But of course!
    Last edited by AJStoner; October 16, 2011 at 04:57 PM.

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  5. #5
    AJStoner's Avatar Lord of Entropy
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    Default Re: Ideal Units and Tactics

    Another favorite trick of mine is to have some fast, hard-hitting unit hidden away from the main formation in the trees so they can spring once the enemy's forces are committed.

    Ireland is my favorite faction and they have an ideal unit for this in the Ridire. They are essentially heavy troops on unarmored horses. They pack a serious punch and can outmaneuver more traditional heavy cavalry. Used correctly, these Irish "Light Knights" are a profoundly effective utility unit.

    *MEMBER OF THE HOUSE OF HADER* *UNDER THE CRUEL & MERCILESS PATRONAGE OF y2day*

  6. #6

    Default Re: Ideal Units and Tactics

    I use the traditional Alexandrian style hammer and anvil, either as France or Ireland (both Western cavalry powers) depending on what mod and mood I'm in.

    Archers or musket forces divided between flanks and front line, with frontal groups on skirmish mode. They target light infantry and cavalry as a priority, to take the mobility out of the enemy force so that my cavalry can move freely. I generally hire mercenaries for this job before the gunpowder age comes. They also run interference with enemy cavalry movement after the general infantry melee begins.

    Spearmen lined up behind and between the skirmish line, which can absorb plenty of beatings due to large unit size and decent defence values, to take the fight to the enemy directly.

    Assault infantry (Muire, Gallos, cheeky-pagan-beserkers, etc) behind the last unit of spearmen on either end of the flanks, who then proceed around the battle line and attack the enemy's flanks and rear. I have also been known to pile all the "assault" infantry onto one flank for this purpose.

    I sometimes include a piece of pre-gunpowder artillery on occasion behind the infantry line, which has varied effects, but that's generally just because I include artillery in my armies very often for siege purposes.

    Behind that, a large force of mixed cavalry (Ridire, Hobis, Bodyguards etc) which all move as a group rather than splitting between flanks. This gives me the advantage of local superiority of numbers over most forces with equal or marginally greater numbers of cavalry.

    The general point of the set up is to demoralise the enemy, with ranged units targeting the most vulnerable targets to kill off as many men as possible, local superiority of numbers to rout individual units that can then cause a general rout.

    As for success, it varies. Against human opponents, I haven't tried it in a long time, my connection has been too bad for too long. Against AI opponents with enhancements, one of two things will generally happen. The first is that my spear line will hold, and the cavalry forces will manage to rout the enemy easily, gaining easy 90%+:15%- loss-to-loss ratios. The second is that the centre of my line doesn't hold and collapses (either quickly or slowly), turning the battle into two mini-melees, which causes much greater casualty rates to my infantry forces (~40%) but eventually goes my way via cavalry intervention or plugging the ranged units into the enemy's rear. When I lose, it's generally due to much greater enemy numbers or unit quality. Or in sieges. I hate playing sieges on the battle map...

  7. #7

    Default Re: Ideal Units and Tactics

    The Ridire sound like great cavalry units. I can't wait to start an Irish campaign and find ways of using them. They offer their own special of niche of cavalry as you detailed above. That alone is an excellent reason to play as Ireland just to use them in battle.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Ideal Units and Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by RubiconDecision View Post
    The Ridire sound like great cavalry units. I can't wait to start an Irish campaign and find ways of using them. They offer their own special of niche of cavalry as you detailed above. That alone is an excellent reason to play as Ireland just to use them in battle.
    They are pretty excellent, especially when combined with a Hobiguir unit or two.
    Outpacing other heavy cavalry is always a plus.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Ideal Units and Tactics

    It's not really a very complicated tactic but when playing as the Welsh I like to use their longbowmen (Saethwyr?) to weaken the enemy before charging a unit of swordsmen through into the enemy just before the reach my lines. Also if I have them the I'd use mounted Saethwyr to be harrying the enemy as they approach my position and just lead them towards me. N.B. I havent got very far in my Welsh campaign yet so I havent got to the better units.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Ideal Units and Tactics

    Look for many detailed tactics in my upcoming manual. Here's one you can field test right away. Shields are carried and looped through the left hand and arm. This means that if you attack from their right side, then your archers can penetrate their defenses better, strictly because they cannot block as well. Other than shield wall which interlaces shields (on old technique from the early medieval period, but having antecedents from the Tetsubo formation [tortoise]).

    Shooting your arrows from the side ( a pin) will do quite a bit of damage from their right. It's important not to reference from your position, but the enemy as your approach may not be head on, and it's confusing to reference yourself. Shooting from behind them causes incredible damage, but it's hard to do in a field battle, unless they're ambushing from trees. That take a lot of foresight and or skill to redeploy them through the forest and around, as movement rates are lowered through the trees. Still awesome when you can do it.

    It is hard to get one group of archers into position to hit this way. It is pretty easy to use multiple groups of archers to do this, and of course very easy to do this with horse archers. A horse archer can make a regular archer group waste a lot of arrows. A light cav unit can make an archer group constantly break formation and two working as a tag team can pin and flank by taking turns.
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; October 24, 2011 at 05:05 PM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Ideal Units and Tactics

    I look forwards to this manual of yours it should help me improve as I'm not really that great at fighting the battles, I generally prefer the campaign map part.

  12. #12
    AJStoner's Avatar Lord of Entropy
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    Default Re: Ideal Units and Tactics

    When playing the Welsh it is important to take advantage of your missile troops, both mounted and on foot, since you are an order of magnitude better off than the other factions in this department. One of the techniques I like to use with the Welsh is have a small main front with my Gwents and heavy axemen that can draw-in the enemy's main force while I hit them with a unit or two of longbows from each side with some spearmen deployed to protect them. A few mounted archers and mounted javelins can then race behind the enemy formation and work them over from there, constantly running away when opposed. This will greatly help nullify the strength of an opponent who relies on heavy, slow-moving main battle units.

    When playing as the Welsh, remember that you are at a serious disadvantage if you start trading blows in toe-to-toe melee, but you are lighter on your feet than any other force in the game and can hit from further away.

    *MEMBER OF THE HOUSE OF HADER* *UNDER THE CRUEL & MERCILESS PATRONAGE OF y2day*

  13. #13

    Default Re: Ideal Units and Tactics

    Unusual tactics on low level settlements

    A lot of medieval battles occurred after protracted sieges. They merely waited them out, as the soldiers within were weakened by hunger and demoralized. An ugly truth was that sometimes women and children starved so that the soldiers could eat and be ready for battle.

    In the game, the defending units take a morale hit and often a loss of numbers prior to battle. Maybe you've gotten bored with waiting, but you know your army isn't strong enough to handle taking on lots of angry Galloglaich, so you wait rather than take a defeat or huge losses. During that time period, you make a couple of rams, and you might attack from multiple sides to divide the defenders and force them to man the walls. This can help, but you can still get clobbered since their attack strength can be high and you mostly have defenders.

    City Gates

    Sallying Defenders Approach Ram Obstacles

    /\ /\ /\

    Spearmen
    Spearmen
    Cav Archers Cav
    A weird tactic is to make too many rams. Let them sally, and place the rams in inverted V formations, creating peaks on the front line, analogous to blunt stakes, and these make obstacles for the sallying defenders to navigate. That slows them down, so shoot them with archers...defend the created pinch point with spears... and if you don't have heavy infantry, come in from the sides (pin) and the rear (flank) with the cavalry.

    If you go around them with cavalry while their infantry is tied up with your spearmen/archers, your attacking cavalry can run through the gates sometimes by overpowering a unit and letting them rout into the city and your cav will follow. This makes all their infantry want to return to the "town square" and hence your weak spearmen can do a rear attack on the defending infantry who are trying to re-navigate past those rams and back into their own city.
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; October 25, 2011 at 01:45 AM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Ideal Units and Tactics

    I never actually thought of doing that, sounds like a great idea!

  15. #15

    Default Re: Ideal Units and Tactics

    Thanks. I was frustrated on more than one occasion playing another mod, and trying to deal with the fact that England got no heavy infantry for a long time to balance their longbow strength. So out of desperation, I made more for a multi-pronged ram attack of the palisade from different directions. Then I thought, "Why not?" when some defenders opened the gate to charge. I think it was cav, and a lucky shot with peasant archers killed several of the bodyguard unit.

    Have you ever been pushing in siege towers only to have it catch fire? I recall getting right up to the walls and becoming extremely annoyed when it caught fire before it could dock. Could be worse, my men could have become crispy critters.

    I've always thought, on low level wooden walls, where you can build siege towers, wouldn't it be great to build 4-6 and push them en mass towards the walls, deliberately catching them on fire, and burning down the wall. I wonder if that's possible?

    Or what if you push the towers right against the gate so it's blocked so their cavalry can't exit? It would mean bringing an all infantry army, and they could then exit from another side. I guess you could do the same with rams, block all the exits. Still tactically it could be interesting. I like to push the envelope and do weird crap just to see if the game will let you do it.

    It would kind of be a first as your general would have to climb the walls to get in, so you'd have to assign the first slot general as a heavy infantry ...probably. Generals shouldn't just be cav, but I understand for game dynamics why they are.
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; October 25, 2011 at 01:02 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Ideal Units and Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by AJStoner View Post
    When playing as the Welsh, remember that you are at a serious disadvantage if you start trading blows in toe-to-toe melee, but you are lighter on your feet than any other force in the game and can hit from further away.
    The Welsh scare me the least out of all the factions. While my infantry is highly vulnerable to missile attack, the large proportion of Irish armies devoted to cavalry make it difficult for Welsh armies to counteract an offensive strategy, in my opinion. Particularly as their spearmen are tied up getting their heads split open by large two handed axes.

    However, it makes siege warfare absolute hell, I starve out Welsh garrisons far more often than I actually fight them. Welsh strategy is best deployed in taking and holding towns and castles, in my opinion. It's balanced by the fact that they have poor heavy infantry, but that's what mercenaries are for, to fill the gaps.

  17. #17
    AJStoner's Avatar Lord of Entropy
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    Default Re: Ideal Units and Tactics

    The missile range, speed, and versatility of the Welsh units really shines in siege defense. capturing a line of settlements and letting the English break across your frontier like waves on a rocky shore is an excellent tactic.

    *MEMBER OF THE HOUSE OF HADER* *UNDER THE CRUEL & MERCILESS PATRONAGE OF y2day*

  18. #18
    Eohelm's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Ideal Units and Tactics

    As a general strategem on the battlefield, I like what I call a Modified Hammer and Anvil.

    I take all of my cavalry, heavy and light, and place them on the far side of one wing. To counteract my line's vulnerability on the other wing to enemy cavalry, I take all my spears and place them there, extending the line a tad for the sake of the strategy.

    Heavy infantry in the front line with spearmen next to them, and light infantry in a line that goes half between the heavy infantry, and half between the spearmen with my archer force behind the light infantry and a bit to their left. Staggered.

    Full Cav Force (Four to Six) -----------HeInf HeInf HeInf HeaInf Spear Spear Spear Spear
    ------------------------------------------------------------------LiIng LiInf LiInf LiInf LiInf
    -------------------------------------------------------Misl Msl Msl Msl Msl Msl

    I open up with a heavy infantry and spear charge, using my spearmen to wrap around my enemy's left flank. This is after I use my spears to discourage enemy cavalry, but typically a human player will respond by using all their cav to try and reach mine, or they'll loose their entire right flank.

    All the while when my spears are trying to wrap around my enemy's left, my light infantry are reinforcing the lines where neccessary. I usually use light axe and shieldmen when I can, as they are effective against armor.

    While this is going on, I send my cavalry force, all of it, directly to my enemy's right, and if I manage to crush their right flank and cavalry, then I slam them full charge into my enemy's right. His army is now stuck on three sides between cavalry cycle charges, heavy and light infantry on the front, and spears and light infantry to their left. All the while my missile units are hammering away at their back forces.

    The main issue I have encountered is that most of my strategy relies on my cavalry not getting too badly cut up getting to where they need to go. Like I said, usually someone will meet my cav with theirs, and my strategy relies on my cavalry winning that fight. If they lose, the plan usually doesn't end up so well.

    If my cavalry win the fight, during my cycle charges, I send some light cav out to handle my enemy's missiles troops.

    Another issue that I can run into is mounted missile troops. They can mess up some of my line or even some of my cavalry, seeing as to get the desired impact, my wing cav force is usually four or five heavy cavalry with just one light cavalry unit for a bit of diversity.

    That's mostly my genericly used plan. The Modified Hammer/Anvil.
    Last edited by Eohelm; November 04, 2011 at 10:48 AM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Ideal Units and Tactics

    Eohelm, that's not a modified hammer and anvil, that's classic hammer and anvil

    Any strategy that relies on infantry to suppress enemy movement by engaging them so that cavalry can attack is hammer and anvil. It's not Alexandrian, sure, because you're not using spears or pikes as the main infantry contingent, but it's still hammer and anvil.

    What you describe is very similar to my strategy, though I don't use anywhere near the same amount of missile and light infantry as far as I can see...

  20. #20
    Eohelm's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Ideal Units and Tactics

    The only reason I referred to it as modified is because I strike from the side instead of the back and pile all my cav on one side instead of being balanced at the start.

    Leaves me kind of vulnerable to enemy cavalry, but it hits harder.

    lol Maybe it was just my desire to seem different. XD

    As for the diagram, it was a rough. I usually have three missile units or so, and typically a 2:1 ratio between Heavy and Light infantry. Or something near there. Never underestimate light infantry with armor rendering axes. lol

    Either way, if it's considered normal, my bad for spamming the tactics page.
    Last edited by Eohelm; November 04, 2011 at 02:21 PM.

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