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Thread: Muhammed and Hitler - quite possibly history's two most impacting men

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    Spartan JKM's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Muhammed and Hitler - quite possibly history's two most impacting men

    Superfluous to say, many, many great figures (not necessarily noble) have shaped our history, and affected millions of lives (whether good or bad) in the process - Buddha, Aristotle, Augustus, Jesus of Nazareth, Ts'ai Lun (invented paper), Genghis Khan, Johann Gutenberg (invented the printing press), Christopher Columbus, Desiderius Erasmus, Galileo Galilei, Constantine the Great, William the Conqueror, Isaac Newton, James Watt, Charles Darwin, Simon Bolivar, Guglielmo Marconi (invented the radio), Mikhail Gorbachev.......

    However, the influence upon human history which was carried into effect by some was somewhat inadvertent (most people who watch their TV sets probably don't know the name of Philo Farnsworth). Without Alexander Graham Bell, the telephone would have been developed (or was it already with Antonio Meucci?) , and without the work of Nikola Tesla in electromagnetism etc., many more famous inventors would have not had such a valuable platform to work from, including Marconi and Thomas Edison. Someone else would have expounded the tremendously influential ideas that Charles Darwin theorized had he not come along (actually, one Alfred Wallace was on the same track). The colonies of South America would have won their independence without the central figure who led them to that very liberty from Spain, Simon Bolivar; it might have been Antonio Jose de Sucre, a primary lieutenant of Bolivar's.

    But there is nothing to indicate that had Muhammed, the great Prophet of Islam, or the Praised One, or Adolf Hitler, perhaps the most evil man in human history, had not come into being, the immense movements they executed would not have been carried out by another.

    I would like to stress that anyone attempting to 'rank' the relative historical influence of individuals is a very subjective process. I simply feel that these two men impacted the peoples of the world, in distinctive ways (long and short term) quite possibly more than any other individual(s).

    In the long term, on balance, Muhammed might be the most influential man who has ever lived. He imbued his followers in the early 7th century with an ideal that hasn't missed a beat; the explosion out of the barren Arabian peninsula into a conquest and conversion of half the Mediterranean world is one of the most extraordinary phenomenon in history - and it happened because of the vision of one man.

    As for the world in his time, no man has affected the lives of people throughout the world as Hitler did. If any war in history was a just war, from the view of so many different people throughout the world, it was the war, the most catastrophic in our history, to rid our world of this man.

    MUHAMMED (570-632 A.D.)

    Unlike many of the great figures of history, Mohammed was born of humble origins in a backward part of the world, in Mecca (southern Arabia) in the year 570 A.D. He was an orphan before he was 10 years old, and 30 years later, there was no indication he was a remarkable person.

    Most of the Arabs at this time were pagans, believing in many gods. But Muhammed, who for some time was a merchant, came to believe there was one supreme God who ruled everything. Somewhere along the line, Muhammed became convinced that this one omnipotent God - Allah - spoke to him, and chose him to spread the 'true' faith. The trade filtering through Mecca brought him into contact with with Judaism and Christianity, which certainly influenced his thinking. His vision was was that of the archangel Gabriel, who bade him to go forth and preach. Muhammed began his quest by preaching to his close associates first, and began doing so in public by around 613 A.D. He found more followers to the north in Yathrib (he himself renamed this city Medina), where he fled (the Hegira), than in Mecca, where the authorities saw him as a nuisance and some even plotted to murder him. In Yathrib, he procured an influence so strong amongst his growing followers he became practically an absolute ruler. It was from Medina he built his theocratic state, and from which he ruled his rapidly growing empire. Islam counts its dates from the Hegira, as Anno Domini is from the birth of Christ. From the Muslim calendar, our current year is 1384 A.H. Sorry, did I need to explain that ?

    By 630 A.D., after a series of battles, most notably Badr, in which he led his followers against Mecca, Muhammed effectively ruled practically all of Arabia. The remaining few years of his life were committed to the swift conversion of the outlying Bedouin tribes to the new faith. Muhammed died in 632 A.D., but nothing - absolutley nothing - died with him, in terms of the fervent belief layed down by his vision. Unified for the first time in their history, the hitherto fractured tribesmen of Arabia, who never lacked ferocity as warriors, embarked on one of the most astonishing conquests in human history. They enjoyed no advantages in technology, arms, or numbers against the Sassanids and Byzantines they would thoroughly subsequently defeat. Much credit must go to Umar ibn al-Khattab, who prevented a power struggle upon Muhammed's death by supporting rather than opposing the candidacy of Abu Bakr, the father-in-law of the Prophet (Muhammed died without naming a successor). Abu Bakr died after only two years as the first Caliph, and he did provide for a successor, that being Umar. Upon his death, he named a committee of several important men to choose his successor, thus again avoiding a power struggle - just the sort of thing that causes an empire to crumble (a la Alexander). The decade of Umar's caliphate witnessed the most substantial conquests of the Arabs.

    Sorry, I am deviating. The cradles of civilization, the Euphrates lands and Egypt, have remained Muslim, as has the entire northern shore of Africa. The depth and scope of Muhammed's influence can be gauged by the fact that teh new faith spread far beyond the borders of the first conquests. They were booted out of Spain, and stopped at Constantinople, but the gains throughout the centuries far outweighed the losses. From Africa to Central Asia, to Pakistan through northern India, and to Indonesia, Islam has been a unifying element for tens of millions of people, and these adherents, in both quantity and feeling, have not mitigated whatsoever. Of course, not everything has been smooth.

    There may be approx. 1.6 times (?) as many Christians as Muslims in the world today, but Muhammed played a much more valuable role in the development of Islam than Jesus of Nazareth did in the expansion of Christianity. Few people would seemingly question Jesus of Nazareth not being the most impacting individual in human history, but as an individual, he did not single-handedly develop (a little different from founding) Christianity as Muhammed did Islam. Many people vastly underestimate the invaluable contributions of Saul (later St. Paul), Constantine the Great, and St. Augustine of Hippo when it comes to the spread of the Christian doctrine. Now, I realize this may be a can of worms I am opening, but I am thinking in terms of 'objective ' history. OK?

    Moreover, Muhammed formulated (or transmitted) the divine, ethical, and moral principles of Islam, with the scriptures all being expressed in the Koran (Quran). The extent of influence this has permeated down the timelines is colossal.

    Perhaps most importantly, in judging his vast influence, Muhammed was a secular as well as a religious leader. I find this fascinating, given the deep, godly feelings of devout Muslims. But the Prophet wasn't exclusively about religion; he was the catalyst of the great Arab conquests, which makes him a prominent political driving force of history. No other conquest has proved as permanent, and as unifying, as that of the Arabs. Because he was diverse does not automatically make him possibly history's giant, in terms of influence. It was his direct spearheading of the Arab conquests, which had enormous political impact on the Mediterranean World, whcih makes his diverse influence unique. Division did occur amid Arabic history, evidenced by the split into the Sunni and Sh'ites about a decade after the death of Muhammed, but never has the Arab world become substantially disparate. Arabic language and cultural values has prevented any substantial disunity in the Arab world primarily because the Koran is well-centralized.

    Muhammed (or Mahomet or Mohammed), greatly raised the spiritual and moral degree of a people compelled into backwardness by the heat and foodless wastes of their lands. He succeeded as brilliantly as any other reformer; perhaps no man has so fully realized his visionary dream. When he began his quest, Arabia was a desert of wandering tribes; when he passed on it was a nation. To this very day, Islam remains a virile force throughout at least 1/3 the world. Everyday life pretty much falls under both religion and secularism, and Muhammed's combined influence in both branches might render him the most impacting figure in history. Amazing.


    ADOLF HITLER (1889-1945 A.D.)

    Unlike Muhammed, the incredible, abhorrent movement that Adolf Hitler perpetrated died with him. National Socialism had no significant leader before him and not one after him. The indelible stamp he has left on the generations after WWII aside, including our own, the effects of Hitler's actions carry little weight. But no man in history has impacted the world of his own generation as he did. Let's face it - he single-handedly caused the most destructive war in history (even without the Pacific theater), one that would result in the deaths of some 35 million people, not counting the theater in the Pacific, which he still affetced by signing an agreement with Japan, which influenced their militant decisions.

    Adolf Hitler was born in Braunau, Austria, in 1889. Similarly with the situation with Muhammed before he undertook his great cause, nothing was evident about him that indicated a man capable of enormous things, in any form. He was an outsider in every possible way. Not a German but an Austrian, a failure in school in Vienna, his artistic aspirations punctured because he simply wasn't good enough, aimless and peniless at 30 years old, and no political connections. How this man got a hold of a nation and caused the powerful events in Europe, and beyond, in the late 1920s to the mid 1940s is an aberration of history. But he would find his niche in Munich on the outbreak of WW1.

    The experiences of the young Adolf, full of discontent, in Vienna were later put to use, though. Amid his attention to the activities of the Pan-German Nationalists and Christian Socialists etc., the young Adolf was greatly affected by two men: Georg von Schoenerer, the founder of the Pan-German Nationalist Party, and Karl Lueger, leader of the Christian Social Party. Basically, Schoenerer advocated a program of violent nationalism, based on anti-Semitism and anti-socialism, and Lueger had a talent for winning support of the masses. As we know, these two elements Hitler would greatly embrace and implement.

    Furious over Germany's defeat in WW1, in which he, along with many others, felt 'stabbed in the back', he Hitler assigned a job in the Press and News Bureau of the Political Department of the Army's district command in Munich. One day, he intervened at lecture in which someone spoke well of the Jewish people. His anti-Semitic harangue apparently impressed and pleased his superiors; they appointed him a Bildungsoffizier (educational officer), whose main task was to combat 'dangerous' ideas, such as pacifism, socialism, and democracy; the army had taken a conception of what threatened a concept they had sworn to serve. Adolf Hitler had found another calling.

    He joined a little-known right-wing party in Munich, known as the German Workers' Party after receiving orders from the Political Department to sound this tiny party. It was run by one Anton Drexler, who may be said to be the actual founder of National Socialism. Hitler wasn't impressed at first, but, specifics aside, revised things and became the leader, changing its name to the NSDAP - National Socialist German Workers' Party in April 1920. Hilter's organization was based on turning already tough roughnecks into 'strong-arm squads' , known as Ordnertruppe.

    Under Hitler's leadership, the Nazis rapidly grew, but he failed in an attempted coup d'etat in 1923. It was in jail where Hilter wrote his ideas with Mein Kampf (My Struggle). Except for the Bible, no other book sold as well during the Nazi regime; he was a millionaire by the time he took complete control in 1933.

    By the late 1920s, the Nazi party was still not very significant, but with the advent of the Great Depression, much disaffection spread among the public with the established German political parties. Hitler convinced the people he could rescue them from its disastrous predicament. They complierd, and Hitler was chancellor of Germany in 1933, Fuehrer a year later with the death of Paul von Hindenburg. He proclaimed,

    "The German form of life is definitely determined for the next 1,000 years. The Age of Nerves of the 19th century has found its close with us. There will be no other revolution in Germany for the next 1,000 years!

    Hitler's proclamation was off by 988 years.

    Forgive me, I'm probably going on too much, but Hitler did gain the genuine support of many Germans, as he did reduce unemployment and generate a sound economic recovery for the country. In the late 1930s, he shrewdly manipulated events that set Germany on a path of bloodless (not heartless) conquest that led to WWII.

    By 1938, Germany was the most miltant and powerful country, perhaps, in the world, and WWII took place betweem 1939-1945. By early 1943, the war had inexorably gone agianst Hitler, as he simply overextended himself.

    He committed suicide in Berlin in may, 1945, as the Soviets closed in. He had springboarded a policy of genocide upon his 'enemies' that has no parallel in history. The staggering number of millions who were murdered died within an efficiently run organization of death camps like a succeeding business enterprise. These acts were not spontaneous, not carried out amid the heat of battle. So intent upon this horrific program that even late in the war, when Germany's supply of fuel for military use was quickly becoming scarce, the cattle cars kept rolloing along in their mission - a mission which served no military function.

    Hitler will remain infamous as long as recorded history exists; if figures such as Caligula, Vlad the Impaler, and Tomas de Torquemada, whose deeds of cruelty pale in comparison, on a broad scope, with those of Hitler, have remained a stigmatic symbol of evil, it is certainly safe to assume Hitler's reputation as the most evil man ever (for now) is not a t all threatened. As the principal instigator of both WWII and the Holocaust, Hitler's impact upon the world of his time was greater than any other figure in history; the entire movement of the Nazis was dominated by him and him alone, and when he died, the Nazi party died with him. Again, in stark contrast to Muhammed, he had little effect on the future. He failed to accomplish any one of his primary goals, the biggest of which was to eliminate the Jewish people. Well, just 15 years after he obtained absolute control, a Jewish state was created for the first time in 2,000 years. He also wanted to expunge Communism, but the influnece exerted by the Soviets upon the world expanded significantly after the war. Hitler also detested democracy, but Germany is a thoroughly functioning democratic state today.


    The last recorded words of this mad genius were reputedly to have been,

    "The efforts and sacrifices of the German people in this war have been so great that I cannot believe that they have been in vain. The aim must still be to win the territory in the East for the German people"

    Goodness, a poor Germany (the innocent part) in complete devastation in May 1945 had still not convinced him that the horrible appropriation of the Slavic lands, and murder of millions of their people, at the hands of his armies in the previous years, was a fuilte Aryan dream.

    In the long run, Muhammed has possibly touched more lives than any othe figure in history, and Adolf Hitler disturbed the world more potently during his reign than any other figure in history.

    Hope I didn't ramble too much. For the life of me, I do not remember from which book - one of those 'Greatest Influential People' types - I read this information that always stayed with me. Anybody know a book which presented Muhammed as the #1 influential person of all time?

    Thanks, Spartan JKM :original:
    Last edited by Spartan JKM; April 19, 2006 at 07:35 PM. Reason: Proper grammar

  2. #2
    Garbarsardar's Avatar Et Slot i et slot
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    Default Re: Muhammed and Hitler - quite possibly history's two most impacting men

    Very nice post, although I don't quite grasp why you felt the need to include Hitler and Muhammad in the same post. The absence from your part of any effort to demonstrate any kind of historical parallels between the two verges on the suspicious.
    What's next? Einstein and Jack the Ripper? Jesus and Barbarossa?

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    Default Re: Muhammed and Hitler - quite possibly history's two most impacting men

    Quote Originally Posted by Garbarsardar
    Very nice post, although I don't quite grasp why you felt the need to include Hitler and Muhammad in the same post. The absence from your part of any effort to demonstrate any kind of historical parallels between the two verges on the suspicious.
    What's next? Einstein and Jack the Ripper? Jesus and Barbarossa?
    Yeah exactly. Why these two in particular? Surely Jesus had a greater impact, did he not?

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    Default Re: Muhammed and Hitler - quite possibly history's two most impacting men

    Good job. I read a book in my Lit teachers library and it said that Muhammad was the number one influential man in history.

    Adnan

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    Hub'ite's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Muhammed and Hitler - quite possibly history's two most impacting men

    I'd have to say that Jesus Christ is the most influential man in history. With 2.1 billion people being Christians thats hard to top.

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    Kscott's Avatar New and Improved!
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    Default Re: Muhammed and Hitler - quite possibly history's two most impacting men

    Jesus didnt really change world history as much as Muhammed did...

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    Default Re: Muhammed and Hitler - quite possibly history's two most impacting men

    Quote Originally Posted by Hub'ite
    I'd have to say that Jesus Christ is the most influential man in history. With 2.1 billion people being Christians thats hard to top.
    Yeah, but how many of these 2.1 billions are true christians? In the sense that they actually go to church and stuff. I know I do not, still, though, I am considered a christian. Islam still unites people, christianity fails to do that now.


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    Hub'ite's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Muhammed and Hitler - quite possibly history's two most impacting men

    Quote Originally Posted by Kscott
    Jesus didnt really change world history as much as Muhammed did...
    What has Muhammad done the Jesus/God hasn't? My Islamic history is a little rusty......

    Quote Originally Posted by The-Great-Dane
    Yeah, but how many of these 2.1 billions are true christians? In the sense that they actually go to church and stuff. I know I do not, still, though, I am considered a christian. Islam still unites people, christianity fails to do that now.
    Hmmm, Islam isn't very uniting. Their killing each other over there. I don't know of Christians blowing themselves up and killing their own.

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    therussian's Avatar Use your imagination
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    Default Re: Muhammed and Hitler - quite possibly history's two most impacting men

    Quote Originally Posted by The-Great-Dane
    Yeah, but how many of these 2.1 billions are true christians? In the sense that they actually go to church and stuff. I know I do not, still, though, I am considered a christian. Islam still unites people, christianity fails to do that now.
    It unites people, but in what?

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    Kscott's Avatar New and Improved!
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    Default Re: Muhammed and Hitler - quite possibly history's two most impacting men

    What has Muhammad done the Jesus/God hasn't? My Islamic history is a little rusty......
    thanks to him the Arabs exploded out of arabia an formed an intercontinental empire whose descendants would greatly alter the course of human history forever.

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    Default Re: Muhammed and Hitler - quite possibly history's two most impacting men

    Well, creating the world's largest religion which has lasted 2,000 years, and has led to the rise of France and Germany after the crusades, led to the downfall of Rome (don't deny it...) spawned hundreds of wars, caused the deaths of millions, influenced some of the greatest minds of history (Thomas Aquinas), and provoked some of the other greatest minds in history (Newton), created a set of morals virtually identical to four continents (though often not practiced in full), with strong influences in the other two (um...don't count Antarctica), provided the basis for many of Mohammed's teachings, and, most importantly, saved the souls of possibly billions of people (don't hurt me) certainly has some bearing... Influence isn't simply what the person did, but what has been done in their name.
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    Halie Satanus's Avatar Emperor of ice cream
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    Default Re: Muhammed and Hitler - quite possibly history's two most impacting men

    Why have you chosen these two in particular,maybe i'm seeing something that isn't there,maybe the conspiricy theorist's of Twc have finaly achived osmosis of my usual open minded nature, if your intension's are indeed honest,then all well and good, if however there is a hidden agenda you should say so. it dos'nt take a genius to google the two names and come up with some very dangerous links. just my 2p

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    Default Re: Muhammed and Hitler - quite possibly history's two most impacting men

    Quote Originally Posted by Harbringerxv8
    Well, creating the world's largest religion which has lasted 2,000 years, and has led to the rise of France and Germany after the crusades, led to the downfall of Rome (don't deny it...) spawned hundreds of wars, caused the deaths of millions, influenced some of the greatest minds of history (Thomas Aquinas), and provoked some of the other greatest minds in history (Newton), created a set of morals virtually identical to four continents (though often not practiced in full), with strong influences in the other two (um...don't count Antarctica), provided the basis for many of Mohammed's teachings, and, most importantly, saved the souls of possibly billions of people (don't hurt me) certainly has some bearing... Influence isn't simply what the person did, but what has been done in their name.
    You see, Islam still unites people now, and almost all Muslims are religious in a high way. Very few of them are not, while in Christianity, it's the opposite. There are fewer people who are religious, than there are religious. By religious meaning follow the rules of Christianity, etc.

    Adnan

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    Harlanite's Avatar Certified Ignoramus
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    Default Re: Muhammed and Hitler - quite possibly history's two most impacting men

    Quote Originally Posted by Garbarsardar
    Very nice post, although I don't quite grasp why you felt the need to include Hitler and Muhammad in the same post. The absence from your part of any effort to demonstrate any kind of historical parallels between the two verges on the suspicious.
    What's next? Einstein and Jack the Ripper? Jesus and Barbarossa?
    I agree, I found the thread title quite insulting to be honest. And reading through it I don't see the historical parallels either.
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    Default Re: Muhammed and Hitler - quite possibly history's two most impacting men

    I wonder if this belongs in the Ethos...or Mudpit....hard to say. The title indicates VV, but the discussion appears otherwise.

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    Halie Satanus's Avatar Emperor of ice cream
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    Default Re: Muhammed and Hitler - quite possibly history's two most impacting men

    Quote Originally Posted by Honor&Glory
    I wonder if this belongs in the Ethos...or Mudpit....hard to say. The title indicates VV, but the discussion appears otherwise.
    this thread is likely to cause upset very quikly especialy if you move it to the ethos,imo
    http://www.islamreview.com/articles/tyrants.shtml

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    Default Re: Muhammed and Hitler - quite possibly history's two most impacting men

    Quote Originally Posted by Kscott
    Jesus didnt really change world history as much as Muhammed did...

    I'll have to disagree. Whilst Muhammad might have created a new, powerful religion and led his people on a conquest of much of Antiquity, it is very possible that it would have happened nonetheless, maybe with a different religion, but still very similar.

    However, Jesus Christ was different. Where else are you going to find someone who says he is the son of God, is executed for it, and allows for the spread of the most impacting religion to date, touching cultures all over the world.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Muhammed and Hitler - quite possibly history's two most impacting men

    MasterAdnin:

    I assure you, if you travel to Latin and South America, South East Asia, and certain parts of Africa, that you will find the same dedication there that is shown by many of the muslim faith. Christianity, while a predominantly European creation and religion, has ties all across the globe, much like Islam. You will find that it is not the type of faith that keeps people from being united, but rather their socio-economic backgrounds.

    For example, if you look at the American Southland, compared to say, California, you will see a much higher religious zeal in the South. That being said, you will see an even greater religious zeal in places like Brazil or central Mexico. Of course Christianity is going to have more faux faithful, because it's a bigger religion. However, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were talking more in regards to proportions. With that in mind, what is the economic status of the most famous Christian countries (America, Italy, France, etc.) when compared to the most famous Muslim countries (Iran, Iraq, Turkey, etc.)? The lack of religious conviction you cite isn't because of Christianity, but because of secularism. Namely, people who have more to go off of than just faith.

    And, going back on topic, what's there to say that Jesus, through Christianity, hasn't touched the lives of most Muslims? I highly doubt there is a strong muslim influence in El Salvador or Venezuela. Many muslims fear the idea of Christian invaders because of the crusades, it's a matter of culture. Many Christians fear the idea of Islamic Jihad because of recent events; speaking from experience, the people in Brazil don't care one way or another about Islam.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Muhammed and Hitler - quite possibly history's two most impacting men

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterAdnin
    You see, Islam still unites people now, and almost all Muslims are religious in a high way. Very few of them are not, while in Christianity, it's the opposite. There are fewer people who are religious, than there are religious. By religious meaning follow the rules of Christianity, etc.

    Adnan
    And sooner Islam stops following the rules so closely the better the world and they will be, much like with Christianity went thru. Anyway I think its safe to say Mohammed and Hitler are amoung say the top 50 of people to impact the world and leave at that.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Muhammed and Hitler - quite possibly history's two most impacting men

    Muhammed is ranked #1 on Micheal Hart's list of 100 Most Influential Persons in History. with Isaac Newton as second and Jesus as third.

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