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Thread: Jutland! Who did win?

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    imb39's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Jutland! Who did win?

    Disclaimer: the action is, essentially, written from a British perspective. I would welcome other view points readily… This has always fascinated me!

    The Battle of Jutland (Skagerrak)


    One of the greatest sea battles of all time which still leaves people arguing – who won…?

    During the build up to WW1 one arms race came to dominate all others. Britain had, for many centuries recognised the value of controlling the seas and had fought off the Spanish, Dutch and French in pursuit of that goal. Two dangers lay on the horizon Germany and America. Both threats and both building up fleets that would rival the legendary Royal Navy.

    Both Britain and America had, at the turn of the century hit upon the idea of the all big gun battleship and a race began to build the first one, HMS Dreadnought was born and was so revolutionary that she gave name to a new class of warship.



    At a stroke all previous battleships were made obsolete. In a similar way HMS Warrior rewrote warship design, Britain had made useless the bulk of her battle fleet. Suddenly the odds were even...

    Britain and Germany set about constructing a battle line which would be awesome in firepower. America, safe in isolation pursued a similar policy.

    Britain, under Admiral Fisher’s keen, if at times flawed, leadership also developed another class of warship, the battlecruiser. The first one launched – HMS Invincible had a potentially similar effect with the cruiser. Indeed at the Battle of the Falkland Islands (a revenge for the Battle of Coronel), British battlecruisers did what they were designed to do, hunt down cruisers and wipe them out with superior firepower. Fisher’s dream was vindicated – or so it seemed…

    Both fleets were fairly well matched, ship for ship, but the Royal Navy was larger. German ships tended to have thicker armour but mounted less powerful guns.

    By the time WW1 started Fisher had departed the scene. Other characters were to play a part. At Jutland, four stood out (with supporting people, for example Hood).

    Sir John Rushworth Jellicoe


    Born in 1859, Jellicoe was Britain's best-known Admiral at the start of the war. By the time of Jutland he had control of the Grand Fleet. A cautious man, he worked with Fisher in modernising the navy prior to 1914 and was seen as Fisher’s natural successor. He was criticised heavily for the battle, unfairly in my humble judgment. His deployment of the fleet into battle was flawless and he outmanoeuvred Scheer twice, as we shall see later. In the end he was poorly served by both equipment and other officers.
    For further reading, here’s a good source.

    Sir David Beatty



    At Jutland, Beatty commanded the British Battlecruisers had had the most powerful battle squadron assigned to his control too, the 5th Battle Squadron, made up of the brand new Queen Elizabeth fast battleships.



    Winner of a previous battle, the Dogger Bank , Beatty was a confident commander who was unlucky not to inflict severe damage to the Germans battlecruisers.

    A complete contrast Jellicoe, Beatty was a dashing man who was not afraid to take risks. Extremely popular, he ended up replacing Jellicoe in command of the Grand Fleet. Despite taking heavy losses he did what was asked of him – deliver the High Seas Fleet to the Royal Navy.

    For further reading, a good start is here.

    Reinhardt Scheer



    Scheer, like his contemporise, was born midway through the 19th century (1863). He was a firm believer in the use of submarines and became well known in the strategic use of these still unproven craft. He often lured British surface units into areas where submarines were operating, this met with some success.

    He intended to try and reduce the disparity in numbers and then deliver a knock out blow in a decisive action. He was considerably more aggressive than his predecessor, Hugo von Pohl, and was appointed commander of the High Seas Fleet in January, 1916

    For further reading, a good start is here.

    Franz Von Hipper


    Born in the same year as Scheer, Hipper was incharge of the scouting element of the High Seas Fleet. He was, as a result placed in command of the German battlecruisers.

    By this time Hipper had acquired the nickname ‘baby killer’ for his raids on Scarborough. These raids stung the British and the result was, eventually, the Battle of the Dogger Bank. Here he met and was defeated by Beatty.

    An almost calamitous battle, this turned into a silver lining as design flaws (which both fleets shared, paradoxically) were picked up and solved. The result was bitter for the British in the end…

    Like Beatty, Hipper’s role in this battle was to deliver part of the Grand Fleet into the arms of the Scheer. This he managed with aplomb. His performance was excellent in this battle.

    The Battle itself…



    The Grand Fleet was based at Scapa Flow, in the Orkneys; this enabled Germany to be blockaded. Beatty’s battlecruiser squadron was based in the Firth of Forth to protect the eastern coast of England from German raids. The date is May 30th, 1916.

    Scheer’s plan was to bring out parts of the Royal Navy and crush them in detail. Hipper was sent into the Skagerrak and threatened patrols in the area. Radio traffic alerted the British to this development. Beatty sailed forth, Jellicoe followed. The pieces were being manoeuvred into position for a meeting that was rather unexpected by both sides.

    Scheer has planted many submarines outside the British bases but in the end they were for nought and both British fleets slipped out of harbour unmolested - crucially, Scheer was not aware that the entire Grand Fleet had set sail. To compliment this, though, the Admiralty sent word to Jellicoe that the High Seas Fleet was still at harbour in Willhelmshaven. The result of this error was to undermine Jellicoe’s faith in intelligence and also to underestimate German strength. He stationed the fleet to cover Beatty rather than sail directly to battle.



    The Battle itself started off as a meeting engagement. Light forces on both sides fired and called in reinforcements. Both Hipper and Beatty could not believe their luck. Beatty, ever the hasty commander, raced ahead of the 5th Battle Squadron to engage the German Battlecruisers. The German’s had the advantage of the light and the Lion, Princess Royal and Tiger had been hit. Due to errors, one German battlecruiser, Von Der Tann was unengaged for over 10 minutes.

    One hit struck Lion’s midships ‘Q’ turret and it was quickly flooded to prevent a catrastrophic explosion. The British were about to learn the dangers of using battlecruisers, something the Germans had already done…

    Within a few minutes 2 shells from Von der Tann struck Indefagitable. A huge orange flame ripped the ship apart. Everyone was stunned. At about this time, the 5th Battle Squadron arrived and started to hit the German force, but to no avail. Concentrated fire on the Queen Mary caused a result that was not too unfamiliar. Cordite had set off the magazines and, like Indefagitable, the Queen Mary was no more.

    Destroyers, so often forgotten participants in many battles were also skirmishing. One managed to torpedo the Seydlitz. There was little discernable effect.

    Hipper was playing his hand brilliantly. He was defeating a much more powerful force AND luring them into Scheer, who was steaming north to intercept.

    Out of the haze that often covers the North Sea, British units began to notice the long battle line of the High Seas Fleet. Beatty signalled for his fleet to turn north – towards Jellicoe. Alas, no one bothered to tell the 5th Battle Squadron

    Now this was the most powerful squadron afloat in the world at that time. Armed with the brand new 15” guns (which are widely regarded as some of the best ever mounted on a battleship), these ships blindly carried on until they too came up to Scheer’s force.

    Wheeling north, they were subjected to a barrage of shots, one was hit and the steering was jammed. One of the newest ships of the Royal Navy, HMS Warspite, was, alone, facing the entire German fleet, 9 miles long. In an incident that became famously known as ‘Windy Corner’ her crew fought valiantly to release the rudder as shells poured down on her. She was hit thirteen times, after two turns, she managed to steer away from the fleet.



    At this time remaining Beatty’s surviving battlecruisers were reinforced with those from Jellicoe’s fleet. Hood was in command of three battlecruisers – the Invincibles. They carried on the duel with Hipper’s battlecruisers and the Invincible managed to hit the Lutzow 8 times. The odds were shifting… Suddenly the Invincible, like other ships, broke in two. Her magazines exploded and an orange flame shot into the air. Hood was one of those killed. Many British ships did not realise what had happened and as they sailed past many cheered thinking it was one of the enemy. Lutzow could not keep up and Hipper transferred his flag at this time.

    His timely, if fatal, arrival gave Jellicoe the time he needed to deploy the fleet. A box of ships began to string themselves out into a line only 5 miles long. Scheer was still not fully aware of what was out there. The advantage was with the Royal Navy now. In this deployment Jellicoe managed to achieve every admiral’s dream – the crossing of the ‘t.’ His battle line blossomed and shell began falling on the shocked lead units of the High Seas Fleet. Scheer, only had one option – one of the hardest manouveres was attempted and achieved with aplomb. The entire German battle fleet broke off behind a smoke screen. Only one unit, the Falmouth, noticed this manoeuvre but didn’t report it.

    Jellicoe had lost his prize…

    About 10 minutes later, Jellicoe changed course to pursue. Astonishingly he achieved that most prized of positions again. Crossing one’s ‘t’’ is a nightmare for any admiral at that time. Scheer desperately ordered his battlecruisers to charge while the rest of the battle fleet broke off.



    Supported by destroyers Hipper charged and then broke off. The cautious Jellicoe, facing destroyers in poor light withdrew slightly.

    Evening was approaching and night fighting was the last thing he wanted. He organised his fleet with the cruisers and destroyers at the back and stationed it to resume battle the next day.

    Scheer, had few options. Stay for the next day and his fleet would surely be annihilated… A night time break for home was the only option available to him.



    Scheer dashed through the rear of Jellicoe’s lines. Destroyers and cruisers were no match for battleships. Crucially Jellicoe was not informed until it was too late. Scheer brilliantly broke through and raced for home. Only one major unit was lost in this dash – the Pommern, but this was a ‘pre dreadnought.’ Eventually the Lutzow sunk too and the Seydltiz, severely damaged, settled on the bottom of the harbour. She was raised and carried on serving the HSF until after WW1.


    Seydlitz after the battle.

    One curious aspect of the battle consists of the aftermath. Germany was quick to claim a victory (after all they had caused more casualties) and released a communiqué to that effect. As Jellicoe hadn’t written a report on the battle, the Admiralty released the communiqué, a shocking decision and one that devalued the British achievements. After all, they held the battlefield and Germany never risked a sea battle on this scale again. The mutiny of the HSF was a crucial factor in the fall of the Kaiser.

    Further reading:
    Kipling's account for the Telegraph
    Jellicoe's account of the battle
    Scheer's account of the battle
    Last edited by imb39; April 15, 2006 at 02:05 PM.

  2. #2
    Yorkshireman's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Jutland! Who did win?

    Tactically the British, although we did'nt kill as many of them as they did us, the German fleet ran for port and decided against any further large scale naval encounters or force projections for the remainder of the war. They then singularly failed to relieve the allied blockade of Germany.

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    Default Re: Jutland! Who did win?

    I think it was a German loss. Although the British commanders failed to pull off a Nelson-esque decisive victory through daring maneuvers (as you noted, he was a cautious one) and smash the Germans, but they did force the Germans to retreat and suceeded in the secondary objective of forcing the High Sea's Fleet to remain bottled up in port. So the British suceeded in maintaining the blockade on Germany and preventing German surface ships from wreaking havoc on allied shipping lanes.

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    imb39's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Jutland! Who did win?

    It was said of Jellicoe - he was the only man who could lose the war in an afternoon. I think, overall, his performance was excellent. A few mistakes here and there, yes. He had to be cautious.

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    Ahlerich's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Jutland! Who did win?

    well i guess i should stay out of this and leave it to you commonwealth ppl to talk about this.

    in my opinion it was a plain and simple pyros victory for germany - "another victorious battle like this and we lose the war"

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    Default Re: Jutland! Who did win?

    Im going to cop out and say a German Tactical but a British strategic.
    WE GO PLAY SOME HOOP

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    imb39's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Jutland! Who did win?

    That is a common way of looking at it. Stragtegically, there's no contest. British win. But tactically, though...

    Also, what marks this battle out is that the four main commanders played their hands as well as possible. Beatty, though, was the poorest performer. He could easily have lost the 5th Battle Squadron. Remember, these were the finest ships afloat. Period. They could outfight any other at the time. The best balanced ships of WW1. I'm biased over this, though.

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    Spiff's Avatar That's Ffips backwards
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    Default Re: Jutland! Who did win?

    The mistake was building Dreadnoughts.. we didnt need them and they set the counter back to zero for everyone.. pfft. Though in fairness they do have huge cannons, i can see the appeal.
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    Default Re: Jutland! Who did win?

    They were a logical step. America and Germany were hitting on the idea - indeed America had first 'seen the light,' we just built the first one faster and nicked parts from other pre-dreadnoughts to ensure completion (100 days construction time, I think).

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    Carach's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Jutland! Who did win?

    did the german fleet break the blockade?
    did it achieve any of its objectives?

    did the british achieve any of its objectives?

    if you look at these, the british fleet was victorious - although several ships were lost (ammo was stored above decks in the ships that were destroyed, and too much of it, ordered by the commander of the group...that was why they 'exploded suddenly' when hit..), the german fleet didnt break the blockade the british fleet had, they sat in port for the rest of the war.
    Britian's supremacy over the oceans was no longer in dispute (although, the german fleet was not much in comparison to the british in the first place)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlerich
    well i guess i should stay out of this and leave it to you commonwealth ppl to talk about this.

    in my opinion it was a plain and simple pyros victory for germany - "another victorious battle like this and we lose the war"
    If you look at the small (tiny) picture, you are right.

    But a war lasting several years, where the grand fleet's blockade was important..is the big picture, and in that picture, is a german loss.

    In previous centuries we defeated the french, spanish and dutch, among others, they never opposed us again after that on the seas..this was due to overwhelming victories, and not 'tactical wins' though...
    Last edited by Carach; April 16, 2006 at 02:15 PM.

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    Spiff's Avatar That's Ffips backwards
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    Default Re: Jutland! Who did win?

    Its probably true, i was thinking of this primary quote at the time but i cant remember its wording; it's effect was "why did we bother, we didnt need them". Dont ask me who said it though!

    I suppose it's just aswell we won that particular naval arms race in the end, though it didnt exactly help the pre war tensions in Europe, damn progress does more harm than good!
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    imb39's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Jutland! Who did win?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carach
    did the german fleet break the blockade?
    did it achieve any of its objectives?
    The HSF was not attempting to break the blockade. It was attempting to reduce the disparity in fleet size. In this case, that happened, though by a negligible amount, truth be told.
    did the british achieve any of its objectives?
    Yes in that it denied the sea to the Germans (ie enforced the blockade) but no in that a decisive engagement was achieved.
    if you look at these, the british fleet was victorious - although several ships were lost (ammo was stored above decks in the ships that were destroyed, and too much of it, ordered by the commander of the group...that was why they 'exploded suddenly' when hit..), the german fleet didnt break the blockade the british fleet had, they sat in port for the rest of the war.
    Not true. The safety precuations envisaged by the designers were often ignored by the navy. Armoured doors were kept open etc. This was particularly crucial (and was discovered by the Germans at Dogger Bank). Also British cordite was more unstable than that used by Germany.

    When a German shell blew up a turret the flash moved down the ship towards the cordite and shells. This caused the problems at Jutland. Had the blast doors been kept closed, it is almost certainly probable that all of the British ships would have survived. Also British shells were often defective and failed to explode. This was not helpful either.
    Britian's supremacy over the oceans was no longer in dispute (although, the german fleet was not much in comparison to the british in the first place)
    Hmmm.... Clearly you might need to read up on that a bit more...

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    Default Re: Jutland! Who did win?

    Quote Originally Posted by imb39
    Not true. The safety precuations envisaged by the designers were often ignored by the navy. Armoured doors were kept open etc. This was particularly crucial (and was discovered by the Germans at Dogger Bank). Also British cordite was more unstable than that used by Germany.
    i watched a documentary some time ago that said many of the ships carried extra ammo due to the royal navy's fast firing techniques.

    it did also mention lack of safety precautions (doors being left open - to move ammo through etc)

    i just forgot to mention them until you remind me :/

    Quote Originally Posted by imb39
    Hmmm.... Clearly you might need to read up on that a bit more...
    ok so i was being bias..im british ffs :laughing:

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    Default Re: Jutland! Who did win?

    I'm tired, but I'll quickly add that from a tactical perspective the German fleet, amid the confusion, retreated and was mined in by the British navy - constituting, in my eyes, a spectacular British victory. The German navy however inflicted more casualties, due to a vulnerability regarding ammunition storage (as previously stated), and had the engagement been prolonged the entire course of the war could have been very, very different.

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    imb39's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Jutland! Who did win?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carach
    i watched a documentary some time ago that said many of the ships carried extra ammo due to the royal navy's fast firing techniques.

    it did also mention lack of safety precautions (doors being left open - to move ammo through etc)

    i just forgot to mention them until you remind me :/
    Well, I cannot be held responsible for that! I seriously doubt as to whether that extra ammo was the problem. It was the complete disregard for safety in an effort to get efficiency.
    ok so i was being bias..im british ffs :laughing:
    So am I, but I also recognise a good adversary when I see one.

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    Default Re: Jutland! Who did win?

    Oh come on, patriotism shouldn't enter the realms of historical accuracy.

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    Yorkshireman's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Jutland! Who did win?

    This a little off topic of who won at Jutland, but a poignant story from the battle, of Britains youngest holder of the Victoria Cross. I remember being taught this story in basic training and was quite moved by it, due to his age.

    Jack Cornwell. Boy Seaman. VC. (16yrs)

    Leaving his job as a delivery boy, Jack Cornwell, at the age of 15, joined the Royal Navy without his fathers permission.

    On this day tomorrow, Easter monday, he was sent to Rosyth, Scotland, to be assigned to HMS Chester.

    On May 31st, 1916, HMS Chester was in the front line at the Battle of Jutland, and coming under direct fire from 4 Kaiserliche Marine cruisers. The gun turret within which Boy Seaman Cornwell was stationed, recieved 4 direct hits. Severley wounded by shrapnel, Cornwell remained at his post until the Chester was ordered to retire from the action with only 1 working turret. After the battle, the ships crew found Cornwell, the sole survivor, looking at the gun sights and still awaiting orders.

    Ordered back to the port of Immingham, Cornwell was transfered from HMS Chester to Grimsby hospital, but on 2nd june 1916 he died of his wounds before his mother could get to see him.

    The Admiralty recommended him for a posthumus Victoria Cross, and King George V endorsed it.

    Citation for Victoria Cross by Admiral Beatty.

    "The instance of devotion to duty by, Boy (seaman) John Travers Cornwell who was mortally wounded early in the action, but nevertheless remained standing alone at a most exposed position, quietly waiting orders untill the end of the action, with the guns crew dead and wounded around him. He was under 16 and a half years old. I regret that he has since died, but I recommend his case for special recognition in justice to his memory and as an acknowledgment of the high example set by him."
    Jack Cornwell depicted in his Boy Scout uniform



    HMS Chester


  18. #18
    imb39's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Jutland! Who did win?

    Thank you for that, Yorkshireman. Indivual stories like that illustrate the heroism that often takes place and yet is often forgotten.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Jutland! Who did win?

    Quote Originally Posted by I Have a Clever Name
    and had the engagement been prolonged the entire course of the war could have been very, very different.
    theres a reason the germans ran away

    the overwhelming firepower of the british fleet would of smashed them, losses may of been high for the grand fleet yes, but i doubt they would have allowed germany command of the seas.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Jutland! Who did win?

    meh, as i understand it...

    we drrew the germans out
    beatty met them in battle, screwed up by changing course at the last minute, meaning all the guns had to be reaimed, and lost several ships
    then jellicoe turned up with the whole grand fleet with him

    the germans backed away, and jellicoe was reluctant to pursue becuase he was afraid of the damage german torpedo boats could do to his battleships so he returned home too

    result, no side won,
    britain got what it wanted, it kept the germans penned up
    germany sank more ships
    and beatty practically got lynched when he returned home for not having "trafalgared" the germans


    i blame the british use of battlecruisers personally... an absolutely useless class of ship...

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