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Thread: Please fix the unit movement speed...

  1. #1
    [G-Shock]'s Avatar Semisalis
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    Icon4 Please fix the unit movement speed...

    I know it's a tough decision to make, especially with the AI being unable to garrison its castles but I can't take anymore the tremendous turtle speed of unit movements on the campaign map.

    Despite road posts everywhere in my domain, it takes less to build a recruitment center (of any type) at the front line and to recruit fresh new troops there than to recruit and deliver troops from my native centers. This cannot stand.

    Currently, it takes 3 turns, that's nine months to get from Satsuma to Higo. Needless to say, in offensive campaigning it means you also take the winter attrition just to get there to attack, 75% of times.
    Unless I am mistaken it takes 3 turns but it might take 4 actually (IIRC the unit could stop just outside the castle, inside the action circle of the castle garrison if any). For the sake of logics the difference between 3 and 4 is irrelevant.

    Since I am testing this change in another mod, along with other features, I wanted to stress out the importance of making the unit movement a bit faster on the map. This is especially true for the mangonels... they will reach the front line when the war is over but the same goes for all units, including the agents who by all accounts travel much faster (ironic).
    In the meanwhile, the general you are recruiting from gets killed or bribed... the manual move to a castle gets cancelled because you lost the castle.... and a move of 1 yr earlier adds to hundreds of moves with other units to a terrible micromanagement that the low speed problem generates.
    For Shimazu, this means every turn you must make sure the passage to Nagato is clear... just to mention one of the micromanaging issues.

    In 2600BC an army could march at normal speed 30 li per day. I am not claiming it, it's Sun Tzu saying so. The acknowledged forced march speed is 50 li per day.

    Now the "li" measure has been "updated" many times in chinese history but it's sure we must assume its quantity is the one of the arcaic period.

    Here's the li: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_%28unit%29

    Specifically: However, more recent and reliable determinations show that during the Early and Later Han dynasties the value of the Chinese li was 0.4158 km (0.2584 miles).




    As you can see by the screenshot, the distance between Kagoshima and Nagato is 135km, rounded up to 150km and which accounts to 340 li (rounding to the closest integer and increasing the distance to simulate road movement instead of aerial distances).


    340/30= 11,3

    That's right.
    It should take 11 days to reach Higo from Satsuma and right now it takes 3 turns, 3 seasons which means 9 months (as I said earlier, maybe an entire year).

    I know there's difficulties about this change but perhaps we could reach a better game/history compromise somehow. 10 days is 1/3rd of a month, 1/9th of a season. We are around 9 times slower than we actually should be.

    ... and that's maths + history saying so.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Please fix the unit movement speed...

    This is 1 thing I agree with, for the same reasons posted. I'm a turtle type player to be honest, but even I'm finding the movement way to slow.

  3. #3
    [G-Shock]'s Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Please fix the unit movement speed...

    Unit produced in Buzen are highly affected. The movement speed across the strait takes one season (3 months) to merely cross it. Then there's woods.
    It basically takes a Mangonel unit an entire year just to get out of the woods and without even arriving to Suo (much less to Nagato).
    It's really unbearable.

    The AI reaching Yoroi Doshi has an unlimited source of very heavy manpower and since it basically cheats on Koku, it has no problem with building fortresses and castles everywhere. This means 2 and 3 recruiting slots per season at its front line while even if you had 10 recruiting slots per season in order to arrive from Kyushu to ... say, Tajima, it would take no less than 3 years.

    Even sloths are faster than that. The answer is naval movement. All right... it takes at least 2 years to merge an army in Satsuma worth of taking another year of trip to Kawachi.
    Simply put, this doesn't stand. It's really ridiculous but I am fully aware of the cons. If the AI isn't able to garrison, not just the player but even AI vs AI can conquer 3 or 4 provinces per season.

    There are ways to counter this with 4-season attrition, increased resistance to invaders and decreased repression values.... there has to be a way... but this slow, it's really unplayable.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Please fix the unit movement speed...

    i like it when someone does some research. yes, the campaign map movement could be faster.

    if its a problem that provinces get conquered too fast, it could be usefull to change the seasons...something like this "12 rounds per year" stuff. then an ashigaru-unit needs 6 turns for recruting. ^^

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Please fix the unit movement speed...

    je suis d'accord, it takes FOREVER for an army to get around.
    The scribes on all the people shove
    And bawl allegiance to the state,
    But they who love the greater love
    Lay down their life; they do not hate

  6. #6

    Default Re: Please fix the unit movement speed...

    Hell, it's hard to argue with maths + history!

  7. #7

    Default Re: Please fix the unit movement speed...

    Quote Originally Posted by Davidicus II View Post
    Hell, it's hard to argue with maths + history!
    I can. S2 is a rather abstract game in a certain historical setting. It is not a war simulation. In a war simulation you would spend 95% of your time with boring logistics, not fighting. The limited land movement range gives the game a certain overall pace. If the movement range is higher, the game will be over too quick. On a tactical level a higher range will favour the player: He can avoid winter attrition completely and blitz more effectively. Therefore I am inclined to make only small adaptations:

  8. #8

    Default Re: Please fix the unit movement speed...

    I'd rather not see campaign unit speed increased. While yes, it is inaccurate that it's taking as long as it does to move units places, it's vital for game balance. How do you defend when one army can move through 5 provinces in a turn -- completely bypassing border defenses and castles to beeline directly at a capital? This is one of those places where gameplay must trump realism.

  9. #9
    Heartfire's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Please fix the unit movement speed...

    If this were a real-time game, you would be correct. But as the above poster mentioned, someone could blitz completely through 5 territories in a single turn, while as in real life the opposing faction would have collected his forces and met you on the battlefield.

    You would have to make it 24 turns/year and increase the movement motion by at least triple if not quadruple to accurately portray how far an army could move in 15 days (1 turn in a 24-turn year). Hell, you'd probably have to increase it even more than that.

    But, as I said before, were this a real-time game where I could actively march and respond to marching then I would completely agree with you!

  10. #10
    [G-Shock]'s Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Please fix the unit movement speed...

    You can't blitz in 5 provinces for a couple of reasons.

    1) Resistance to invaders. If this parameter is increased, you MUST garrison the new conquests. Alas, you start this blitzkrieg with 20 units, you end it with 5 provinces and an army of 5 units.
    Next turn your army is destroyed by the enemy and you lose 3 of the 5 provinces to rebels, not to mention the money you must spend to repair the structures you damaged (to this end, rising the base value of castles would make the repairs more expensive in % of damage proportionally). If this is modded, then yes it can be done and it SHOULD be done. It's all a matter of game balance.

    2) Every province you conquer sways the other clans' opinon of you (territorial expansion). If you conquer many provinces in a short time you will immediately become a threat. This is accurate and I don't think 5 provinces would be worth the trouble of going to war with all the major clans at the same time with your defense lines so hyperextended.

    Again, it's all a matter of balance but this implies a main factor: THE AI MUST GARRISON. If this can't be achieved, this game which is already crap as it is, can't be bettered by a mod.

    Look at what the patch gave... the AI still doesn't withdraw when overpowered 3 to 1. Its reinforcements keep coming and you keep destroying them. What about the sieges... once you have 1000 men inside and the AI has just the general, it will dismount and storm the structure. 40 vs 1000 ... good chances to win for the AI! BWHAAHAHAHAHAHA

  11. #11

    Default Re: Please fix the unit movement speed...

    the problem is not the idea of capturing 5 provinces in a single turn. the problem is that you can march through 4 provinces and capture the fifth - its impossible to defend when everyone can reach the castle in one turn, even if the invasion doesn't start from the neibourhood.

  12. #12
    [G-Shock]'s Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Please fix the unit movement speed...

    I hardly believe this can happen at all.
    All the roads pass through castles or castle area of influence (the red circle). You can't go through if you don't capture it and if you can, it's just about increasing that radius.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Please fix the unit movement speed...

    I've actually thought of a good solution for this, if it is possible to implement.

    I was thinking that maybe you could make it so that as soon as an enemy army steps foot on your land you would get the option to muster all troops in that one province to meet them on open ground, as would be realistic. This would take away some of the importence of siege battles, but I have heard that they are not the most realistic anyway.

    It would solve the problem of an enemy army blitz past your front lines. The enemy would also have the same options, which means attacking a province with 2 full stacks, but only 1 stack in near/ in the castle, would be more of a challenge.

    Anyway just a thought

  14. #14
    [G-Shock]'s Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Please fix the unit movement speed...

    I just proposed a more realistic/historical change in the 1.5b2 thread that should take care of everything if realized (which I doubt)

  15. #15
    [G-Shock]'s Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Please fix the unit movement speed...

    A typical example, Satsuma recruits 2 Katana Cavalry. 4 turns (one year and that's a LOT). To get to the northern border of Higo, despite all Trade posts roads: 3 turns (90 days. Mind that it should take ON FOOT 11.3 days to get to Higo and we're talking of cavalry units here).

    So here's the typical speed example. Army in Tsukushi reaches the harbor of Buzen in 2 turns (trade posts roads in both provinces).
    To embark in Buzen and disembark at port of Suo another turn (army can't move unless I disembark it in the port but I'm plotting as it was a single move). The army then moves to Aki, 2 more turns. I am assuming this army has 2 mangonels (which are disassembled and loaded on carts of course but the game doesn't know that lol)

    Total of this move 15 months (1 yr + 1 season).

    I'm plotting the same move with GEarth now and I''ll do it via LAND movement.




    Rounded to 250Km.

    1 li = 0.4 km
    30 li = 12 km <-- this is the distance an army could march in ONE day at the times of Sun Tzu (the forced march would get to 50 li per day which is 20km/day).

    As you can see from the SS, I didn't draw a line, this is the real distance, roadwise, from Tsukushi to Aki.

    At normal marching speed, it would take my army almost 21 days... rounding up... it's one month trip... in S2/TROM it's about 5 turns (15 months).
    Uhm...

  16. #16

    Default Re: Please fix the unit movement speed...

    I understand your concern, G-Shock. But I still have to disagree with you. I'd much rather not see this changed/increased. As it is, you can generally move an army in one--maybe two turns--from one castle to the next, so long as there are no enemy armies in the way and the roads are somewhat upgraded. This feels like a good amount -- not necessarily in a realistic sense, but in a game sense. What you're proposing to get movement speeds up to an accurate level would be increasing the movement distance per turn by 15x. How could you legitimately prepare for an enemy invasion, when they can attack from their capitol province to yours in one turn? You'd have to drastically increase the range that you can intercept an army at (the red circle? I forget..), and also drastically increase the range at which another army can reinforce to make it even somewhat feasible to play. And then you run into other problems. What about navies? Can I now reinforce a naval battle taking place on the other side of Shikoku from my ships?

    My suggestion -- it doesn't look like you're getting alot of support here for your idea. Try making a mini-mod, changing it around yourself. Or maybe play with extended turn times -- there are mods out there that make one season last three turns. That would be a step in the right direction for what you're looking for.

  17. #17
    [G-Shock]'s Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Please fix the unit movement speed...

    You can do that if the time scale is slowed down to monthly turns but i didn't say 15x... 5x is already enough but truth be said the end of it all lies in the lack of garrisons for the AI.
    If you are at war with your neighbor, you will keep garrisons in the castle, hence even from 5 provinces away the enemy army will be beaten. If the AI doesn't garrison it's all useless (useless with or without TROM so to speak, it's CA's fault of course) and it's useless at any marching speed.

    ... hence the dire need for army-sized free garrisons.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Please fix the unit movement speed...

    well heres some ideas :

    1) own Territory own troops speed increased (you know the roads and no afraid of being attacked , full map speed)

    2) enemy territory own troops speed decreased (you dont always know your way , the locals arent helping , your afraid of ambush so need to scout ahead and advance accordingly)

    3) The more decent a territory has , the more attrition / and speed reduction on your troops will have be it enemy or own territory

    4) winter should decrease movement speed a lot , same goes for special events like (monsoon random scripted events etc)

    5) longer to assimilate captured cities , script so that it takes at least 1 - 2 turns (depending on city size) to let the AI or player repairing / building / recruiting / supplying lost troops in the captured settlement , to simulate the time to set up ruling system and governor etc , also help stop blitzing
    Last edited by whitewolfmxc; October 05, 2011 at 11:30 PM.

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