[PROPOSAL] Remodelling the Way Samurai are Portrayed in the Game

[Hatamoto]

Hi everybody,

First of all, I'd like to thank Darth and everyone else who've worked on the DMS for making my Shogun experience so much more fun


I have a mod proposal to make: For me, the katana samurai of shogun have been bothering me immensely ever since I first started playing. The reduced effectiveness in melee of bow samurai and the weak armor of no-dachi samurai also bother me, but that's related to how CA has balanced them in relation to katana samurai to create a very artificial unit roster. I don't like this in the game and I'd like to see a mod that alters that.

I'd want to have a mod that effectively removes katana samurai from the game and which improves bow samurai and no-dachi samurai to proper bushi fighters. Point by point I'd suggest these modifications:

- Remove katana samurai and other related katana units (like katana ronin, but not wako, katana are fitting for them) from the game.
- Improve bow samurai armor and melee abilities to make them good samurai warriors (though not so overbearing that they can frontally break yari units alone).
- Improve no-dachi armor to bring them on par with all other samurai units. This would have to include altering what models are used for them so that they will actually look good. Reduce no-dachi unit size to emphasis their small-elite-group nature.
- Slightly alter some building and clan advantages to fit. This would mean, for example, that basic sword dojo's give bow samurai a slight boost to their melee (if it doesn't do so already) and that the Shimazu katana samurai bonus now goes to improving their bow samurai.


However, I realize that we would now be left with less unit diversity. Also, it would be a shame not to put the low armor model to use. They'll just be hanging around in the files with nothing to do. So, I have some additional proposals:

- Split bow samurai and no-dachi samurai into 4 different units:

Light bow samurai
Heavy bow samurai
Light no-dachi samurai
Heavy no-dachi samurai

The light units would be the mobile units, quicker on the field, tiring slower. These would be the flankers and skirmishers. They would use the current no-dachi armor models. The heavy units would be the line units, heavy bows supporting the main line and charging in to add their weight to the melee where needed, heavy no-dachi there to charge in and break up yari formations where needed. This would give us more unit options, more variation on the battlefield and more interesting tactical choices.


What do you all think of this? I think it would really improve the battle gameplay, making bow armed samurai the good all-rounders they were in real life, removing the anachronism of using katana as main battlefield weapons and, most importantly, giving us the opportunity to field actually good looking no-dachi samurai when we want


What do you all think?



Now, this is a request since I have absolutely no experience in modding anything. However, If no-one feels like making this mod or if no-one has time, I could make an attempt at doing this myself, if I could get enough guidance and support on how to do it.



[EDIT] Damn, I forgot about sword cavalry. They'd have to be removed too. Bow cavalry armor and melee can be improved to bring them up to par (then maybe I'd actually make use of them for a change). Takeda fire cavalry could have their swords replaced with yari perhaps? With somewhat improved staying ability to make them better than normal yari cavalry.

[EDIT-2] I just realized that I had forgotten about katana hero's. These units would be more awesome if changed to being no-dachi hero's.

[Hatamoto]

So many views and not one reply?

[riknap]

The proposal you're making actually resembles the foot samurai concept in the upcoming shogun 2 rise of the samurai. Honestly, it might be redundant by then (or rather, you could instead import them to the original campaign, or however that works).

Also, no offence, but the wall of text you just placed is really off-putting to read, mainly because it's, well, long (placing an abstract on top summarizing what you want in less then a paragraph should help, and make it easier to spot from the "main" proposal) and it's simply a proposal instead (it's not a WIP, so it doesn't attract much attention). To be honest, the only reason I'm replying now is because I'm procrastinating looking at my notes on electronics. Still, your concept is solid, if just simply a proposal at the moment (I don't mod anyway, so I can't help).

[crunchyfrog]

So many views and not one reply?

Maybe because you answered your own question/solved your own request.

Hi everybody,
Now, this is a request since I have absolutely no experience in modding anything. However, If no-one feels like making this mod or if no-one has time, I could make an attempt at doing this myself, if I could get enough guidance and support on how to do it.

If you used the time writing all that, and instead just looked around in the forums.

Download PFM, open the DMS pack file, have a look. Tinker alittle, won't take long before you have what you want. What most of what you requested is not hard, at all.

Table names are self-explanatory, and the PFM developers/contributors have made a good job of explaining what the table columns do.

[Hatamoto]

The proposal you're making actually resembles the foot samurai concept in the upcoming shogun 2 rise of the samurai. Honestly, it might be redundant by then (or rather, you could instead import them to the original campaign, or however that works).

Ah, that might be nice, though I don't have that much confidence in CA

Also, no offence, but the wall of text you just placed is really off-putting to read, mainly because it's, well, long (placing an abstract on top summarizing what you want in less then a paragraph should help, and make it easier to spot from the "main" proposal) and it's simply a proposal instead (it's not a WIP, so it doesn't attract much attention). To be honest, the only reason I'm replying now is because I'm procrastinating looking at my notes on electronics. Still, your concept is solid, if just simply a proposal at the moment (I don't mod anyway, so I can't help).

I appreciate the critique. I still have a lot of practicing to do when composing texts in English, proper text construction tends to go right out the window when you're trying to just get those damn words right

Maybe because you answered your own question/solved your own request.

If you used the time writing all that, and instead just looked around in the forums.

Download PFM, open the DMS pack file, have a look. Tinker alittle, won't take long before you have what you want. What most of what you requested is not hard, at all.

Table names are self-explanatory, and the PFM developers/contributors have made a good job of explaining what the table columns do.

Easy for you to say; I don't Actually have the time to do any of that. I have taken a look at it and given some tables a try, but its still going to be a lot of work for me because I have no experience with what I'm looking at. Working full time as well as studying aside, I now also have family visiting for a couple of weeks, so I'm fully tied up and won't be able to spend the time to edit the game.

Perhaps I'll be able to do it in a while, but if someone with more time on their hands thinks "Hey, why not?" in the meantime, I'd be grateful.



[EDIT] I just took a quick look with PFM again, but I can't find the DMS.pack file anywhere, only the additional mod files like oda_boost etc. [Edit2] nvm, I had managed to overlook it in a different location. I'll try and tinker with it whenever I have a moment's time.

[riknap]

I appreciate the critique. I still have a lot of practicing to do when composing texts in English, proper text construction tends to go right out the window when you're trying to just get those damn words right

Don't worry, we're both non-native english speakers.

Easy for you to say; I don't Actually have the time to do any of that. I have taken a look at it and given some tables a try, but its still going to be a lot of work for me because I have no experience with what I'm looking at. Working full time as well as studying aside, I now also have family visiting for a couple of weeks, so I'm fully tied up and won't be able to spend the time to edit the game.

Perhaps I'll be able to do it in a while, but if someone with more time on their hands thinks "Hey, why not?" in the meantime, I'd be grateful.

So basically, you want to mod it, but you're afraid/reluctant of doing it solo, ie. without backup, lest you run out of steam? I'm actually rather interested in your proposal, and I just MIGHT actually consider helping out (I've tried the packfile manager before editing stuff in Empire, though it was simply to make cannon unit sizes larger).


Although to be honest, the "Removing Katana Samurai from the game" thread title is actually VEEERRYYY off-putting (as I said, the only reason I visited this thread was because I was procrastinating).
Perhaps rewording it into something like Remodelling the Way Samurai are Portrayed in the Game or whatnot might be more effective in enticing views. This is simply because saying "removing katana samurai" is essentially like saying "removing sword-knights" from a feudal era game (yeah, katana (刀) literally means "sword" and samurai (侍) almost perfectly translates as "knight"), which simply results in shaken heads and an impulse to stay away from it.


Anyway, (procrastinating again ), my suggestion is to, instead of making new units via the PFM from scratch, wait for the Rise of the Samurai DLC and modify the foot-samurai from there (ie. copy-pasting values), which would cut the workload.

[Charsi]

Having just jumped from modding a single unit change to modding seven "new" units, I can say that it seems daunting at first but there is a fantastic tutorial on creating a new unit in the modmaking forums here.

I would also suggest that this mod may not even need to be a DMS submod. It could completely stand alone (and perhaps be written in such a way that it meshes nicely with DMS).

What you'll want to do is take it in three stages: one, create the units you want

1) clone Bow Samurai twice into Light and Heavy variants, clone No Dachi Samurai twice into Light and Heavy variants

- stop, test to see if they are recruitable, this is the big step cause you have to set stats, set AI recruitment priorities, etc

2) change the unit models/uniforms/etc for Light and Heavy to achieve the appropriate look and feel

- stop, test again

3) make the units you want to eliminate non-recruitable (katana samurai, katana cavalry, etc)

- test again
- release build 1

But before you do any of this i'd ask you a simple question: as soon as you make a flexible combat unit, what disincentive do you plan to give it? Because if it's good at everything and I can build it in massive quantities... I will. You have to consider unit balance.

[Hatamoto]

Don't worry, we're both non-native english speakers.

So basically, you want to mod it, but you're afraid/reluctant of doing it solo, ie. without backup, lest you run out of steam? I'm actually rather interested in your proposal, and I just MIGHT actually consider helping out (I've tried the packfile manager before editing stuff in Empire, though it was simply to make cannon unit sizes larger).

Not because I may run out of steam, but because I may not even get enough free time to figure out what I'm doing. I'm willing to try my best though as I'd really like to play this variation of the game. I would really appreciate any support you could give

Although to be honest, the "Removing Katana Samurai from the game" thread title is actually VEEERRYYY off-putting (as I said, the only reason I visited this thread was because I was procrastinating).
Perhaps rewording it into something like Remodelling the Way Samurai are Portrayed in the Game or whatnot might be more effective in enticing views. This is simply because saying "removing katana samurai" is essentially like saying "removing sword-knights" from a feudal era game (yeah, katana (刀) literally means "sword" and samurai (侍) almost perfectly translates as "knight"), which simply results in shaken heads and an impulse to stay away from it.

Huh, I didn't realize that. I figured stating what I would literally want to do in the mechanics would be the best title for a thread thanks, consider your suggestion taken.

Anyway, (procrastinating again ), my suggestion is to, instead of making new units via the PFM from scratch, wait for the Rise of the Samurai DLC and modify the foot-samurai from there (ie. copy-pasting values), which would cut the workload.

Could be a good idea, the DLC will probably be released by the time I can actually properly get to modding anyway. I hope what they do will be useful.

Having just jumped from modding a single unit change to modding seven "new" units, I can say that it seems daunting at first but there is a fantastic tutorial on creating a new unit in the modmaking forums here.

I would also suggest that this mod may not even need to be a DMS submod. It could completely stand alone (and perhaps be written in such a way that it meshes nicely with DMS).

Much thanks! I've been trying it out, though I don't think I've found the right .pack files to edit yet (no time to keep looking atm). Can you tell me where I should be looking to change the unit models?

I wouldn't mind making it a stand alone mod, but since I know so little about how DMS is built I'm worried I'll mess up Darth's work, and I don't want to play this game without DMS anymore! Have you got any tips for me on this?

But before you do any of this i'd ask you a simple question: as soon as you make a flexible combat unit, what disincentive do you plan to give it? Because if it's good at everything and I can build it in massive quantities... I will. You have to consider unit balance.

I've been thinking about this and I'd like to expand on my answer, but I'm running out of time now. I'll be back tomorrow, or more likely sunday, to explain how I'd want to balance the units.

[AnimaMea]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=461759

Think this is everything you want. Adds some new interesting units and makes certain hero units unique, adds a little more variation to the campaign, and removes those pesky Katana units!

[riknap]

I've tested the Zenmod that AnimaMea linked.
While it does revamp the roster a lot, it doesn't really combine katana and bow samurai per se in the way you plan it (ie. a hybrid melee-bow unit).

[AnimaMea]

I think the only reason it's hard to do hybrid bow/sword units is because it's hard to get the ai to use units for 2 roles, it'd probably use them just as archers; again, looks like CA have worked out how to do it for the new campaign.

[Mr Kami]

If you want it for personal use just copy the Katana Sam from the latest Trom3 they are exactly what you are looking for (bow/melee hybrid) otherwise ask for permission first before borrowing anything from it for a potential submod.

[Hatamoto]

Sorry, that took much longer than expected and had to miss updating sunday. On the bright side, I've come into some unexpected free time! So I've got 2 days I can work on this idea. Lets see what I can make of it

If you want it for personal use just copy the Katana Sam from the latest Trom3 they are exactly what you are looking for (bow/melee hybrid) otherwise ask for permission first before borrowing anything from it for a potential submod.

Thanks, but I want to try to make my own unit. If this works out I might make it into my own mod for sharing


Also thanks guys. ZenMod isn't entirely what I'm looking for indeed. I want to start out with something much simpler than that.

But before you do any of this i'd ask you a simple question: as soon as you make a flexible combat unit, what disincentive do you plan to give it? Because if it's good at everything and I can build it in massive quantities... I will. You have to consider unit balance.

Numbers would be a good disincentive I feel. I would keep them low in number so that they make good ranged support and good melee backup, but are incapable of carrying the day alone against large mobs of ashigaru.



I've been thinking about balance, and the more I think about it, the more I want to mod every single unit in the game. I probably won't have the time for that however and I worry that the coming patch will mess alot with the game. So I'll wait till after the patch before making any major plans.

In the next two days I want to do just some basic work: Modify katana samurai and katana hero to become heavy nodachi samurai and nodachi hero respectively. Remove katana cavalry from the game and outfit generals with spears.

[Hatamoto]

Alright, first attempt to create a new unit did Not work. Followed all the steps in the tutorial, but It didn't show up ingame, Dmod and normal.

Gonna have to re-read the tutorial threads again to see what I missed.

[DriftKings]

Don't worry, we're both non-native english speakers.

So basically, you want to mod it, but you're afraid/reluctant of doing it solo, ie. without backup, lest you run out of steam? I'm actually rather interested in your proposal, and I just MIGHT actually consider helping out (I've tried the packfile manager before editing stuff in Empire, though it was simply to make cannon unit sizes larger).


Although to be honest, the "Removing Katana Samurai from the game" thread title is actually VEEERRYYY off-putting (as I said, the only reason I visited this thread was because I was procrastinating).
Perhaps rewording it into something like Remodelling the Way Samurai are Portrayed in the Game or whatnot might be more effective in enticing views. This is simply because saying "removing katana samurai" is essentially like saying "removing sword-knights" from a feudal era game (yeah, katana (刀) literally means "sword" and samurai (侍) almost perfectly translates as "knight"), which simply results in shaken heads and an impulse to stay away from it.


Anyway, (procrastinating again ), my suggestion is to, instead of making new units via the PFM from scratch, wait for the Rise of the Samurai DLC and modify the foot-samurai from there (ie. copy-pasting values), which would cut the workload.

Your English is remarkably good for a non-native speaker, I'd venture a guess of 6-8 years of experience with it(English)? What you posted about using the PFM in Empire brought a smile to my face. I always had the same problems with Empire and Napoleon. I'd read real After-Action-Reports of Famous Napoleanic era battles and go ga-ga over the amount of Artillery they fielded, then order around my puny 4 battery entourages in Empire and Napoleon. So I upped them to 6 guns per unit, then 8. Much more satisfying result, less space wasted on Artillery units, more to waste on Cavalry, Light&Line infantry.

Also the Foot Samurai almost solve his problem, although I am sure he would like a mounted Bow/Sword variant as well. Just go into the PFM, open up the main Darth mod Shogun packfile and go to units_tables and edit away. You will want to go to Bow Cavalry, edit their secondary Weapon to a Katana. Go to Katana Cavalry, change their name and change their primary weapon to a Bow and secondary a Katana, add in some ranged values, some ammo and you will have your Light & Heavy Bow Cavalry units.

@Hatamoto your failed unit attempt, did you save the changes you made in PFM? If so does the darthmod_shogun packfile have a lock icon on it? If it does save the file as darthmod_shogun1.pack. Delete the locked packfile, and rename darthmod_shogun1.pack to darthmod_shogun.pack and play.

[Hatamoto]

@Hatamoto your failed unit attempt, did you save the changes you made in PFM? If so does the darthmod_shogun packfile have a lock icon on it? If it does save the file as darthmod_shogun1.pack. Delete the locked packfile, and rename darthmod_shogun1.pack to darthmod_shogun.pack and play.

Thanks, I'll try that on my next attempt. I was originally trying to edit the vanilla game .pack files, but I'll try to work within darthmod next try. After the failed attempt I decided to wait for RotS before trying again, but RotS has been taking up my time ever since

I'll be looking into this again soon.

[Glabro]

Yes, this is basically something that I require from the game, I don't like the concept of "katana samurai" and normal yumi samurai somehow being overly weak in melee at all.

[rob-a-dogg]

Bow samurai, once used a bit and with some experience are MORE than capable of handling themselves in most melee situations.