Euro Crisis

[Ahlerich]

sure the problem stays. however greek default seem inevitable. at least with 50% less dept there is a chance that they may recover within the eurozone. if the greek people cooperate.
troika comes back today i think and at the end of the month it will be decided if greece qualifies for a new money shot

[Condottiere 40K]

It's a pity Delphi is in ruins - Apollo's answer as to whether they should default or not would be illuminating.

[Manuel I Komnenos]

...

But you're going to default whether you get kicked out of the Euro or not.

I really don't understand what the hell you are talking about. Greece has already defaulted since it can't get loans from any country or bank in the universe. We are not talking about a default but about whether the IMF will keep giving the money from the package or not. Most likely they will, they are just pushing for further implementation of its measures. Except if you are advocating that the Europeans don't want their money back. If Greece doesn't receive the money from the package this month Greece will just declare that it can't pay all those people and organizations it owns money to.

[neoptolemos]

It's a pity Delphi is in ruins - Apollo's answer as to whether they should default or not would be illuminating.

This can't be arranged since the place is there and there are pagan olympic gods worshipers in Greece.

[Ferrets54]

I really don't understand what the hell you are talking about. Greece has already defaulted

No it hasn't.

since it can't get loans from any country or bank in the universe. We are not talking about a default but about whether the IMF will keep giving the money from the package or not. Most likely they will, they are just pushing for further implementation of its measures. Except if you are advocating that the Europeans don't want their money back. If Greece doesn't receive the money from the package this month Greece will just declare that it can't pay all those people and organizations it owns money to.

It's not going to, anyway. It's going to default.

[Manuel I Komnenos]

No it hasn't.

Officially? No. Technically? Yeah. What would you call a state that is unable to pay its loans and public servants without IMF aid and which is unable to get loans from any bank in the world?

It's not going to, anyway. It's going to default.

Officially not. Unless the Europeans want to get 0,30 euro for every euro they lend us.

[Ferrets54]

Officially? No. Technically? Yeah.

No.

What would you call a state that is unable to pay its loans and public servants without IMF aid and which is unable to get loans from any bank in the world?

I'd call it a state reliant on IMF aid.

[Tiwaz]

Not really. It just means that non-government actors won't give them credit - governments can still give credits in exchange for things (and governments can also enforce payment).

In exchange for WHAT? Despite claims by Greeks, Greece has nothing it can offer! Gas? Disputed area which nobody wants to touch. It might just as well be Turk gas.

Anything else? Nothing useful.

Besides, all this would mean is a massive decrease in Greek public spending, and instead EU would support Greek social security net due to EU law etc. Hardly a catastrophe.

I'm sure a little rewording for the law can be sorted out for purpose of ending any support for Greece, to make sure Greeks serve at least some function in EU by acting as an example of what happens.

You know, people who just lost a lot of money to someones dishonesty are not inclined to tolerate wasting more money on same lying nation.

It's money your government is willing to pay, whatever populist statements they may be laying out.

Actually, our government has noticed that people are not willing to pay so they have backtracked hard on idea of giving Greeks more money.
If they do, they will be run out of government fast.

A country running a budget deficit? Who would have thought. Nevermind you didn't get the point.

I got the point. Apparently you have no grasp of what it means to run deficit...

Deficit means your income is less than expenditures. Which equals LOANING MONEY! Greece has not seen surplus at least in last 16 years! NEVER a single cent surplus.

Now, I won't go dig deeper but I bet it is earliest when Greece might have had surplus was in 80s.
That means Greece has been running loan based economy for decades!

It indirectly benefits it many ways, but anyway.

Prove that claim. When taxes are not paid, then there is no government revenue. It does not magically come from thin air if people avoid paying taxes.

Again, it would have been considerably less if it was to be taxed.

Again, irrelevant. It has been lost. And even if few deals would not have gone through, having people pay taxes only makes country make MORE money, never less.

And guess what: that goes for you as well, since your country is also a Eurozone member and participates in global finance, economics and trade.

Guess what, we have AAA credit rating. You guys have what? "Crashed"?
Greek debts are NOT Finnish debts. But Greek state debts are YOUR debts as well as every other Greek.

Ok, I'm going to start arresting tax evaders from tomorrow on.

Whatever floats your boat.

Nope. Paying taxes is a personal matter, I'm not responsible for anyone else's debts. If one doesn't pay them, he is the one to go to jail. Not me.

And here we see again the sterling Greek logic, which has resulted in economy which is about to implode.
Tax evader costs your country money. Your country has less money every year to spend than it has things it has to pay. So it takes loans. YOU are participant in every single loan they have to take because tax evaders evaded taxes. Thus it means that you are also responsible for covering up for tax evader.

Yeah, we are the source of all kinds of personal problems for most Europeans. It's self-evident that Greeks are the source of evil in contrast to the angels called Germans, Finns and all other European nations.

AAA baby, AAA. You know what it means? Credibility. Reliability. Monnnney.

And who forced the other Euros to accept this rotten economy?

So if I cheat you and lie to you and through this dishonesty sell you oil well which does not exist, by presenting falsified evidence, fault is in me?

Greek logic just blows my mind...

...while no other nations have any debts or budget deficits

Name other EU countries who have had over 16 straight years of never being able to make single cent of surplus in budget? Not even booming part of last decade...

[benitezking]

The only reason I think Greece is being paid these massive sums is because they worry that if Greece does default, this may shatter confidence between lenders and borrowers a la the GFC. Also, if Greece defaults, some banks would lose their money, and this may lead to their collapse if they don't have other assets to cover for withdrawals and demand for loans.

There may be nothing of interest In Greece besides some ruins, but Tourism Isn't the most profitable industry, particularly in this economic climate. They are only doing this to give Greece a false sense of short lived security.

[GeoEng]

Resources: lignite, petroleum, iron ore, bauxite, lead, zinc, nickel, magnesite, marble, salt, hydropower potential

Source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...elds/2111.html

[Condottiere 40K]

Which brings up the question, why haven't these resources been tapped? Iron ore started taking off once the Chinese economy upped demand, petroleum is likely to be in disputed geographical areas (as always), and hydropower needs a lot of investment.

[Thorn777]

To busy tanning and to busy demanding European solidarity.

[nemgod]

Which brings up the question, why haven't these resources been tapped? Iron ore started taking off once the Chinese economy upped demand, petroleum is likely to be in disputed geographical areas (as always), and hydropower needs a lot of investment.

Turkish Causus Belli basically saying to Greece "You touch those resources in your own waters we will declare war on you."

[Manuel I Komnenos]

Turkish Causus Belli basically saying to Greece "You touch those resources in your own waters we will declare war on you."

Nope. Inability of the Greek government. I don't want to hear this over and over again. Cyprus has a minimal army and still conducts drills.

[Timoleon of Korinthos]

Anybody here still thinking Greek default is evitable? Whats your visions about whats going to happen in the next 12 months or the eurozone? Or are you putting your heads in the sand because we cant do anything anyways?

I used to be optimistic like you, but 2011 has seen too many disappointments and I don't know what to expect anymore. 2010 saw a relevant improvement both in reducing public expenses and increasing state income, but in 2011 the expenditure has reached the levels of 2009 while the income levels have stagnated. All these despite the austerity measures and despite the cataclysmic wave of new taxes that have been introduced (for those who pay anyway). We are losing the crucial battle against tax evasion and there has even been one case of selling state assets yet, out of the planned 50bn Euros we are supposed to have found by 2015. The government is as of a pussy as ever and the deep uncertainty drives the society and the market further down in the pit of recession.
Our last hope may be the formation of the Greek equivalent of KfW that has been commisioned, enlisting the aid of German expertise, which may allow us to contract loans directly with ECB at low interest and buy back Greek government bonds, thus drastically reducing the amounts of interests we have to pay: 16 bn for 2011, 16.9 for 2012, 19.5 for 2013, 22bn for 2014 and 23.4 for 2015. Compare that to the anticipated expenses regarding salaries in the public sector: 13.87, 13.16, 12.79, 12.39 and 12.18 bn respectively, a difference of say 3-5% in interest would have a hugely beneficial impact on our finances

[Nikitn]

In exchange for WHAT? Despite claims by Greeks, Greece has nothing it can offer! Gas? Disputed area which nobody wants to touch. It might just as well be Turk gas.

Anything else? Nothing useful.

*sigh* maybe to stop Greece from collapsing the EU? A single default isn't a massive problem as long as Greece gets the proper support.

[Manuel I Komnenos]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...sequences.html

European Union Economic and Monetary Affairs Commissioner Olli Rehn said a default by Greece would have ’’dramatic’’ consequences.

“Whatever way you look at it, it is absolutely certain that a default and/or exit of Greece from the euro zone would carry dramatic economic, social and political costs not only for Greece but also for all other euro-area member states,” Rehn told the European Parliament today in Strasbourg, France.

/thread

[Nikitn]

Still, it'd be worse if Greece whiped its entire debt than a mere default

[Mangerman]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...sequences.html

European Union Economic and Monetary Affairs Commissioner Olli Rehn said a default by Greece would have ’’dramatic’’ consequences.

“Whatever way you look at it, it is absolutely certain that a default and/or exit of Greece from the euro zone would carry dramatic economic, social and political costs not only for Greece but also for all other euro-area member states France,” Rehn told the European Parliament today in Strasbourg, France.

/thread

Why /thread? All he says is that it will be painful (but that was said about restructuring part of Greek debt too, but that has been on the agenda for a while now). The Greek situation is going to be painful for the rest of Europe either way.

[hellheaven1987]

Sell a few Aegean Islands to Turkey and Greece would have more cash.