3rd cent. Hamata with breasplates?

[The_Nord]

According to this blog http://romanrecruit.weebly.com/armour.html there have been findings of the armour found at the bottom of that page. Since there are no sources given, I wonder perhaps if any of the gentlemen on this site could perhaps provide any addition information? I myself have neither heard of nor seen this type of armour before.

[wulfgar610]

Plate armor of this type is believed to have been used extensively by clibanarii.

Its use might correspond to the similar use of plates by medieval knights, as a defense against the couched lance.

[The_Nord]

They remind me of this kind of armour http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/2008.245 which I thought didn't come into use until the 14th/15th century AD.

[Renatus]

Several examples of these small plates are illustrated in Jochen Garbsch, Römische Paraderüstungen, Munich 1978, Tafn. 8, 9, 34, 35 & 36, with some of the better preserved reconstructed in Abb. 5. They are also discussed, with illustrations, in H. Russell Robinson, The Armour of Imperial Rome, London 1975, pp. 160-161. Both Garbsch and Robinson regard them as parade or sports items, Robinson associating them with both infantry and cavalry while Garbsch's catalogue relates only to cavalry items. Robinson cites them in relation to scale armour, on the basis of a scale being found still attached to one example; I do not know if there are any examples attached to mail. Both Robinson and Garbsch regard them as a means of fastening a scale shirt at the neck. Peter Connolly (who worked closely with Russell Robinson) illustrates a cavalryman equipped for the hippika gymnasia wearing a scale shirt fastened with a pair of these plates in Greece and Rome at War, 3rd ed., London 2006, p. 312. Despite this, I see no reason why they might not also have been used on armour worn in the field. They are too thin to offer much protection in themselves but, if the scale or mail continued behind them, this would not matter. Essentially, however, they are merely decorative.

Plate armor of this type is believed to have been used extensively by clibanarii.

This is a new one on me. References for this contention would be helpful.

[wulfgar610]

This is a new one on me. References for this contention would be helpful.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=313018

‘And there marched on either side twin lines of infantrymen with shields and crests gleaming with glittering rays, clad in shining mail; and scattered among them were the full-armoured cavalry (whom they called clibanarii), all masked, furnished with protecting breastplates and girt with iron belts, so that you might have supposed them statues polished by the hand of Praxiteles, not men. Thin circles of iron plates, fitted to the curves of their bodies, completely covered their limbs; so that whichever way they had to move their members, their garment fitted, so skilfully were the joinings made.’
Amm XVI 10, 8

[Renatus]

I am afraid that this proves nothing. Please show me who associates this type of plate with clibanarii.

[wulfgar610]

I am afraid that this proves nothing. Please show me who associates this type of plate with clibanarii.

As Brian said, some people are never satisfied.

What kind of breastplates do you think the clibanarii wore?

Solid iron?

Solid bronze?

Lorica segmenta, or this sort of stuff? Exactly like Iranian cavalry were still wearing at the end of the middle ages and had probably been wearing all along!

[Renatus]

What kink of breastplates do you think the clibanarii wore?

Frankly, I do not know. There is insufficient evidence to be sure. I can theorise but that is all I (or anyone else) can do. However, when you make a categorical assertion such as this:

Plate armor of this type is believed to have been used extensively by clibanarii.

I want to know the evidence upon which it is based and who it is that believes it. Is this too much to ask? You have presumably got it from somewhere. Where?

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Exactly like Iranian cavalry were still wearing at the end of the middle ages and had probably been wearing all along!

I hope this is sarcasm. You know as well as everyone how poor the state of industry was in Iran prior to the Safavids. There is no way they could have produced armor plates.

[wulfgar610]

I hope this is sarcasm. You know as well as everyone how poor the state of industry was in Iran prior to the Safavids. There is no way they could have produced armor plates.

That's a new one on me. You mean iron and other metal working ceased? They used flint?

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

That's a new one on me. You mean iron and other metal working ceased? They used flint?

They couldn't produce steel. They couldn't even produce iron plate, they had to resort to leather, bronze or tin lamellae for the most part.

[Renatus]

They couldn't produce steel. They couldn't even produce iron plate, they had to resort to leather, bronze or tin lamellae for the most part.

Now I have to ask you for evidence.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

You are implying they had steel?

[Renatus]

I am implying nothing. I am asking for your evidence. Forget the steel; it is your second sentence that I am primarily querying.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

I once saw an osprey image of a 6th century byzantine using hamata and plate armor

[Emperor Caesar]

That is very interesting looking armor. It does not look like much protection and would need mail or scale under it. Who knows it could be ceremonial. It is very ornate and I would think that if a breastplate were to be wornbit would be one that covers the entire torso and is more protective like this one. http://www.raisonsbrassband.com/imag...per-armor1.JPG

[wulfgar610]

It does not look like much protection and would need mail or scale under it.

The plates of the earlier "Lorica segmenta" where only 1mm to 0.7mm thick. The general thickness bar reinforced parts was 2mm for a Renaissance breastplate. Renaisance plate had quilted cloth underneath for additional protection.

[The_Nord]

Wouldn't they have had some padded garment underneath it? Or leather armour?

[wulfgar610]

Wouldn't they have had some padded garment underneath it? Or leather armour?

Quilted armor is padded armor, any form of metal armor would have had textile under padding.

This video demonstrates late 14th century mild steel plate. The importance of any sort of plate is the superior protection it gave against puncturing weapons like arrows and lance compare to maile. This is the reason iron plates would be popular with troops like Clibanrii, and why laminae armor was so popular later on. I suspect the 3rd century onwards plate was more than just display.

The Persian of the 16th century was taking advantage of maile's ventilation in a hot climate plus the protective ability of small plates placed strategically.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

The reason lamellar armor was popular was mainly because it is much cheaper than mail, and offers somewhat decent protection. The problem is that mail is much better protection against everything save maybe powerful missile attacks and blunt trauma, like maces.

It was apparently worn over mail to protect the mail from getting damaged in battle.