Historical Azeri population of Armenia

[karo]

Can you tell me how this is relevant to the situation today?

[Armenum]

Atabeg, can you just say what's your point? Are you trying to claim that Armenia is ancient Azeri land? If you are, just don't waste your time, it's an insult to history.

[Tiberios]

No, that is not what you said.

Actually it was.

Armenia is a result of Russian Imperialism? Yes.

In the modern form, yes. Armenians have existed in the region for thousands of years.

Azerbaijan? No. Because Azerbaijan were not under foreign rule.

As with Armenia, in it's modern form Azerbaijan is the result of Russian imperialism. Had it not been for Russian imperialism, Azerbaijan would have, if it would even exists, be a different country. How much different and if it would have existed at all depends on what would have happened instead.

And what you said in return are nothing more than what might had happend according to you.

Indeed and that was my point. We can only speculate as to what would have happened in absence of Russian expansion into the region. We can't rule out scenarios because we don't like the outcome they suggest or because it goes against a political agenda.

[Erebus Pasha]

Future of Khanates were decided between Russian Empire and Khanates themselves, not between Russian Empire and Qajars. For the 1000th time, Khanates themselves signed treaty with Russian Empire!

Which is completely irrelevant as it was two treaties I mentioned previously that ultimately decided the future of the Khanates.

And please, Qajars themselves came from Azerbaijan, Karabakh. I don't know what to call it, ignorance or... "Persians, "Persian domain", LOL. There was nothing Persian about Qajars.

Which became the ruling dynasty of the Persian Empire. Whilst the origins of the Qajar tribe are in the Caucasus, the founder of the Qajar dynasty, Agha Mohammed Khan, came from Gorgan.

[Roboute Guilliman]

They are taken from official Russian ccounts. Most of them might not be avaliable in English. But Russian Empire recorded everything, all settlemens of Armenians from Iran and Ottoman Empire.

And in same accounts, everything is between Azerbaijani Khanates and Russian Empire, nothing Armenian.

Armenians as a Christian people had to be settled between Ottoman Empire and Azerbaijani Turks, and as an ally in the region. Because they never trusted Azerbaijani Turks, Muslims.

They even had settled Armenians in Baku because of it's importance, they had policy of strategic settlement of Armenians.

With the amount of Bull you bring here, I really do understand why.

[Atabeg]

Which is completely irrelevant as it was two treaties I mentioned previously that ultimately decided the future of the Khanates.




Which became the ruling dynasty of the Persian Empire. Whilst the origins of the Qajar tribe are in the Caucasus, the founder of the Qajar dynasty, Agha Mohammed Khan, came from Gorgan.

No and no. Please, with your very very limited knowledge on the subject, I cannot discuss this with you, and I don't blame you for your lack of knowledge.

"Persian Empire"? So why Russians never used such definition when talking about Qajars?

Yes, that is because his family were resetled there from Azerbaijan during Safavid era. But it dosen't changes the fact that Qajar dynasty were of 100% Azerbaijani origin.

Even Karabakh and Ganja Khanates were from Qajar origin. Khan of Ganja, for instance; Javad Khan Ziyadoglu Qajar.

[Admiral Piett]

What does the population stats from 1897 have to do with 2012?

Furthermore, why are you using historical claims to set borders in the first place? Times change, borders change.

Regardless of the ethnic makeup of NK, there's obviously a serious desire not to be a part of Azerbaijan, enough to shed blood over.

[Erebus Pasha]

No and no. Please, with your very very limited knowledge on the subject, I cannot discuss this with you, and I don't blame you for your lack of knowledge.

"Persian Empire"? So why Russians never used such definition when talking about Qajars?

Yes, that is because his family were resetled there from Azerbaijan during Safavid era. But it dosen't changes the fact that Qajar dynasty were of 100% Azerbaijani origin.

Even Karabakh and Ganja Khanates were from Qajar origin. Khan of Ganja, for instance; Javad Khan Ziyadoglu Qajar.

Doesn't change the fact they were the ruling dynasty of Iran. Nobody ever talks of an Azeri or Azerbaijani Empire do they?

[Atabeg]

Yeah right, now don't come up with modern definitions.

They did not call their state as "Iran", Iran was not used as a state name before Shah decided to do so.

And I don't see why a Turkic Azerbaijani dynasty would name their state as "Persia". Persia refers to a specific ethnic group, Persians. Why would Qajar kings, some of which could not even speak Persian properly, call their state as "Persia". But even Persia itself was only an outside definition.

Very simple, it was called as Qajar state. That's what they called themselves. And there was nothing Persian about it.

[karo]

Yeah right, now don't come up with modern definitions.

They did not call their state as "Iran", Iran was not used as a state name before Shah decided to do so.

And I don't see why a Turkic Azerbaijani dynasty would name their state as "Persia". Persia refers to a specific ethnic group, Persians. Why would Qajar kings, some of which could not even speak Persian properly, call their state as "Persia".

Very simple, it was called as Qajar state.

You do know that Iran was the name that every Persian empire used for itself right? And when are you going to answer my question?

[Atabeg]

You do know that Iran was the name that every Persian empire used for itself right?

Last "Persian Empire" was Sassanids.

Like said, I don't care how old the name itself is, but it was not used in middle-ages and until 1925.

[Tureuki]

But for the Qajars wiki says "Dowlat-e Eliyye-ye Irân"

[Erebus Pasha]

I really don't see how this is really relevant Atabeg. I think you've just tried to create a thread which embellishes the impact the Azeri people have had on the history of the region. I refer to Persia because that it what Iran was called until quite recently. When Britain fought Persia in the nineteenth century they didn't call them the Anglo-Qajar Wars but the Anglo-Persian Wars. Now it is fair enough to refer to to Qajar era Persia as the Qajar Empire as it reflects the ruling dynasty (which I believe you're badgering me to state) but the Qajar rulers adopted the title of Shah, the title of Persian emperors or kings.

[Atabeg]

...

[Atabeg]

I really don't see how this is really relevant Atabeg. I think you've just tried to create a thread which embellishes the impact the Azeri people have had on the history of the region. I refer to Persia because that it what Iran was called until quite recently. When Britain fought Persia in the nineteenth century they didn't call them the Anglo-Qajar Wars but the Anglo-Persian Wars. Now it is fair enough to refer to to Qajar era Persia as the Qajar Empire as it reflects the ruling dynasty (which I believe you're badgering me to state) but the Qajar rulers adopted the title of Shah, the title of Persian emperors or kings.

Check your posts please, the issue is the definitions you use. "Persian domain"?

If it was anything, it was Azerbaijani Turks ruling Iran. Then who were under who's "domain"?

I will repeat again, Persia refers to specific ethnicity, Persians. And I don't see anything Persian about Qajars.

[karo]

Last "Persian Empire" was Sassanids.

Like said, I don't care how old the name itself is, but it was not used in middle-ages and until 1925.

Because the dynasty isn't 100% Persian or Iranian it doesn't change that the empire was Iranian/Persian. Take for example England, it was been ruled by a German dynasty for a very long time does it make a German kingdom/Empire?

You still haven't told me how this is relevant to the situation today? And can you tell me how they themselves connected to an identity that was created in the 20th century? Because the term Azeri and Azerbaijani is new in the past it was only a referral to the region not the people.

[Erebus Pasha]

What bias? Tell me what possible bias I could have in this discussion? Not at any time has Persia been called the 'Azerbaijani Turkic Empire'. The Qajars were a ruling dynasty of Persia that adopted the title of Shah. England had foreign monarchs but it was still known as the Kingdom of England.

[Atabeg]

And when in the hell did this Persia came to be?

England are totally a different case. There was no take over any "Persian throne", because there wasn't one, Persia were long gone since Sassanids.

You should not confuse outside definitions like said. It does not matter what British called them, it most likely was because of geography.

[Erebus Pasha]

Then pray tell what is the correct definition that I use? And I'm still waiting for an answer on the accusations of bias that have been thrown at me twice now in this thread (I see you've edited your posts).

[ivan_the_terrible]

Check your posts please, the issue is the definitions you use. "Persian domain"?

If it was anything, it was Azerbaijani Turks ruling Iran. Then who were under who's "domain"?

This is shaky reasoning Atabeg. By the same logic it was not in fact the Russian Empire that annexed the region, but the domain of a Prussian family...