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Thread: 1390 map and late campaign

  1. #1
    Ichon's Avatar Centurio Primus Ordine
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    Default 1390 map and late campaign

    There are several map projects ongoing right now and while some are already mostly completed everything that is public knowledge has start date in the 1100s. I enjoy High era to Renaissance campaigns the most right now but it is annoying to have to play thru 200+ turns to get there.

    Serbian Hussar has kindly volunteered to put his map skills to work making such a map and after some discussions I think 1390 is the best start date. Caesar Clivus has given permission to use some of the excellent BftB2 models and units as well so the Baltic factions should be well represented with Moscovy borrowing a bit from late Kiev.



    Phase 1:

    Create as accurate map for 1390 given game limitations and the rapid political changes of the 1400s which should be somewhat accounted for. Port as many current SS 6.4 factions and units as make sense and possible use Mongol and Turk units to create Karamanids, Ilkhans, Golden Horde, and some Ak Konyulu factions. Clean out EDU/EDB for 1390 campaign use and make room for more units to be created in Phase 2. Some units will be borrowed for Phase 1, but only where permission is obtained and the models make sense if given different name or stats for the 1390 rosters.

    Phase 2:

    New unit models to created as necessary so factions can fill up with historically matched units until the 1650 end date. Perhaps redo included factions a bit with new models- Crimean Khanate first on the list- Prefer to avoid using horde mechanism but for Crimean Khanate it might work.

    Some event rebellions or spawned armies in Phase 2 after map and current factions are play tested a bit- Hussite wars, Joan of Arc, Vlad the Impaler, Charles the Bold, ejection of Jews and Muslims from Spain, rise of the Safavids, etc. Introduction of more religions- Protestant and Shia.


    Why 1390?

    1390 allows Kalmar Union to have absorbed Norway by Denmark while Sweden will start quite small and allied to Denmark as the political situation was more complicated than 1 simple Scandinavian faction would represent. 1390 will also allow Poland-Lithuania joining to be portrayed.

    There will be no Pagan factions left in 1390. Golden Horde will start as Muslim though with many Heretics at the start to show the amount of pagans, Christians, Buddhists, and other religions was still quite high.

    Timur's invasion of Golden Horde is just beginning- less predictable outcome in 1390 while also avoiding massive Mongol style invasion scripts. Timurids will be a serious threat in 1390- start at war with Ottomans, Golden Horde, and poor relations with Mameluks and Karamanids. Timur will be leading armies into the steppes to attack Golden Horde while a smaller force will be in Anatolia poised to attack Ottomans who have few forces ready on that front in 1390- Ottomans will have most of their forces in Balkans preparing to capture Tarnovo and Thessalonki which start as rebels while also being at war with Wallachia.

    Ottomans are powerful in 1390 but face challenges on several fronts so nearby smaller factions hopefully are not immediately obliterated. Serbia, ERE and Karamanids start allies/vassals of Ottomans because those are the historical relations and to give more time for different outcomes each campaign and for human players taking one of the small neighbor factions a small chance to change history. Jalayrids start as allies/vassals of Timurids, as do Ak Koyunlu. Moscovy is allies/vassal of Golden Horde as is Novgorod.

    Diplomatic relations in 1390

    Teutons start at war with Poland-Lithuania and Novgorod with friendly relations with HRE.

    Sweden and Norway-Denmark start allied but very with poor relations which might lead fast to war.

    England and France begin at peace but with poor relations.

    Castile-Leon is only at war with Maranids but poor relations with Portugal.

    Crown of Aragon starts at war with Maranids and several rebel armies in S Italy.

    Mameluks start at peace but poor relations with every neighbor and relatively weak military for the faction size.

    Milan starts as allies of HRE.

    Venice starts at peace but with poor relations with Hungary and Milan but good relations with HRE.

    Papal States begin with poor relations with everyone except Hungary and Castile-Leon.

    Rebel cities in most regions will start quite strong with both a full garrison and a full field army. Genoa, Florence, Tunis, and rebel area of HRE will start with 2 field armies.

    Swiss start as poor relations with HRE and Milan but friendly with France and Venice.


    List of factions by power in 1390 (power defined by military size and economic power)

    1. Timur
    2. Ottomans
    3. Poland-Lithuania
    4. Castile-Leon
    5. France
    6. HRE
    7. Golden Horde
    8. Teutonic Order
    9. Hungary
    10. England
    11. Mameluk
    12. Venice
    13. Maranids
    14. Burgundy
    15. Crown of Aragon
    16. Milan
    17. Moscovy
    18. Portugal
    19. Karamanids
    20. Norway-Denmark
    21. Novgorod
    22. Jalayrids
    23. Serbian Despotate
    24. Wallachia
    25. Sweden
    26. ERE
    27. Swiss
    28. Scotland
    29. Ak Koyunlu
    30. Safavids
    31. Papal States

    Something similar to this map but not quite as 10 years earlier there are a few differences.

    http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/ima...Hem_1400ad.jpg


    My philosophy on map design is that political borders in this era rarely reflect actual limitations on the rulers power so likely there will be more rebel regions at start though the increasing power of monarchs and centralization of the state is coming closer to the time when map boundaries do indicate real limits of power. For example- HRE was huge but did the Emperor control all the other princes? Not really... I haven't decided fully but more likely I would lean toward the ruling dynasty with their domains and direct vassals starting as the HRE. By 1390s many of the ruling families are becoming intermingled and the politics of succession are getting complicated.

    The Papacy-

    Phase 1 will see Crusades allowed only for Rome as by this point Crusades are not a strong political force- however if an invading factions captures Rome... a Crusade can occur just as several Popes orchestrated large alliances in history.


    Progress and work can be viewed and participated in by the following groups.

    I have a group that invitation in will allow access to the project website: Renaissance 1390 submod for Stainless Steel 6.4
    http://groups.google.com/group/RSS1390

    The website is https://sites.google.com/site/renais...tainlesssteel/ and anyone can view but must be a member of RSS1390 to join discussions and volunteer for tasks.

    If you want, where you would like to help most and what you can do modding wise would be helpful information. For starters creating new ancillaries appropriate for 1390 timeline and creating faction rosters would be the most help for me. Progress is going in fits and starts- so far script is mostly done but undergoing tweaking, Swiss, Ottomans, Wallachia are assigned models and mostly coded into EDU. When my exams are done I expect progress on coding to move swiftly.

    Serbian Hussar is making progress on the map with most of western Europe finished and expect progress there to pick up when his also finishes his exams.

    Just remember that in Phase 1 there are currently no plans to redo graphics or animations. Any new units we can't use a current model for as a placeholder can be borrowed from another mod with permission for this first phase just to make sure we actually get a working 1390 campaign out. So there will not be much visual progress of the work aside from Serbian Hussar's map. As I complete each faction I will release the roster in this thread and the coding will be posted to the website.

    If you want to help but don't have time to do much the only things I really need help with are flags and symbols for the new factions and some research into possible historical characters and rebellions for the various factions. Obviously Hussites and 100 years war will have some inclusions but I'd like to have at least one unique script character or rebellion for each area of the map in the timeline 1390-1650.

    Also building ideas to make the various cultures more interesting- based on history and with reasonable effects please! European factions are already fairly full but in this period Timurids and Ottomans were arguably more advanced in many areas than Europeans so I'd like to reflect that. Currently in Phase 1 the only buildings I have plans tp add are special buildings for the Swiss that are required to recruit some Swiss infantry (to show that is would be quite hard for Swiss to expand rapidly relying on the small cantons population).
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Ichon; May 27, 2012 at 08:39 PM.

  2. #2
    Gogolometro's Avatar Princeps Prior
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    Default Re: 1390 map and late campaign

    Excellent proposal Ichon!

    Kill Them All, Let God Sort Them Out!


  3. #3
    TheP's Avatar Sukauto
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    Default Re: 1390 map and late campaign

    Sounds great! As soon as you've got a working version I'd be glad to try it.

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    Basileus Antiochus's Avatar Supai
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    Default Re: 1390 map and late campaign

    Eagerly awaiting your map mod Ichon

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    Lord Minotaur's Avatar Hastatas Prior
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    Default Re: 1390 map and late campaign

    poland-lithuania? nah, too early, how they can be "allies" if they fought each other at 15 c. after Vytautas and Jagielos death?

  6. #6
    Ichon's Avatar Centurio Primus Ordine
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    Default Re: 1390 map and late campaign

    So thinking more about how to portray religion and the factions-

    Initially the main work will be on the map and basically porting the available factions over to the new factions that aren't too much of a stretch.

    Now religion in 1390 is still important but for the most part the major heresies have been stamped out and those that survived grown into their own religions. So having heretics as a religion might not be necessary. With that change Protestants and Shia should be available from the start of the campaign. Protestants scattered very thinly all over Europe with heaviest concentrations in Bohemia and Moravia where the Hussite rebellions are already brewing- at this point Protestant are disorganized and mainly share critiques of Catholic corruption and Church interference in secular matters. Coherent religious criticisms begin to emerge but Martin Luther encapsulates the feelings and gives voice to an already brewing movement.

    Meanwhile in northern Persia and Azerbaijan there are numerous schools of Islam which are talking and growing stronger under the religious tolerance of the Mongols and their descendents. The Safavids might even be able to start with a single region or 2 in remote aread with rebels blocking entrances. Anyway- the followers of Ali are also spread over most of the Islamic world but slightly heavier in Egypt and Persia with the Levant more equally divided between Sunni, Shia, Orthodox, and a few Catholics/Jews/other religions.

    Jihads and Crusades still allowed is what the campaign will start with. There appears no way to directly to limit frequency of Crusades so maybe other methods will have to be used. IE- making it more difficult to maintain Papal favor, increasing costs of Crusades massively, some other penalties or nerfing of Crusde movement/free upkeeps.

    Catholic, Sunni, Orthodox, Shia, Protestant... the main issue is heresy and Heretics/Witches etc. Ideally in Sunni areas Shia heretics would spring up, and vice versa. Similar to Protestant missionaries appearing after the Protestantism event. The game mechanics will make any halfway accurate portrayal extremely difficult. I have no problem with the Pope calling a Crusade against Protestants as he tried historically just no monarchs were very enthusiastic so likely only Crusade target will the Rome to limit Crusades.

    EDIT- Reformation will be postponed until Phase 2 as it appears quite difficult to script nations having a choice between Catholic and Protestant. Not decided yet about Safavids starting as Shia.


    So back to basics first-

    1. Timur Empire: controls all of eastern and southern Persia- rebel regions start at Giran and Ardabil with Ak Koyunlu as vassals/allies- starts at war with Golden Horde and some armies invading the steppes.

    Easy port of roster with few changes.

    2. Ottomans: controls western Anatolia and parts of eastern Anatolia with most of the Balkans also under control and Serbian Despotate and Georgia as vassals/allies. Starts at war with Timur, and Wallachia.

    Can use most of later Seljuk roster but will need changes.

    3. Poland-Lithuania: United but at war with Teutonic Order and having complicated unity- probably some independent areas and rebels as well as lower developed infrastructure.

    Can use some Polish and Lithuanian units but will need roster work.

    4. Castile-Leon: Begins at war with Marinids and several rebel regions and stacks resulting from recent attempts to conquer Portugal and the weakness of a child king. Perhaps a small English army helping guard ally Portugal still or just some English units in extra large Portuguese armies.

    Later Spanish roster quite useful with a few changes.

    5. France: temporary peace in the 100 years war with England remaining in control of Bordeux and probably just a PSF in Normandy with an army there. France is weakened by years of war, plagues, famines, and the royal family is disorganized. The Duchy of Burgundy is on the rise and the French Crown despite two generations of war controls only a bit more territory than it had when it started. However Paris is one of the most developed European cities and the French military has slowly learned some lessons though still relying over much on cavalry.

    Current late French roster seems adequate with a few changes to extend timeline as close to 1650 as possible.

    6. HRE: complicated politics here... probably will give HRE to the Wittelsbachs with Bohemia independent so Hussite wars can start and there is no question that Hungary is its own faction. HRE will probably only start with 6-7 regions not linked together but with relatively weak rebels nearby in Germany.

    Later HRE roster needs work.

    7. Mamluk: Recent war with Ottomans and mismanagement and plagues have left center of Mamluk power- Egypt weakened.

    Later Fatimid roster can be used with some work.

    8. Golden Horde: Starts at war with Timur and has Moscovy as vassals/allies. A strong army in the field to face invading Timur armies but outnumbered.

    Mongol roster with a few changes adequate.

    9. England: weakened after plagues and decades of war. Rebellions in Wales, Scotland, and civil war will shortly wrack England.

    Later English roster adequate but can use some work near after 1500s.

    10. Teutonic Order: Begins at war with Poland-Lithuania, Prussia is the heart of the order but lands further north are contributing.

    Teutonic Order roster can work very well until mid 1500s when some changes should occur as warfare in Europe is changing.

    11. Denmark: Begins at peace and in control of Norway but with a small Sweden nearby and low relations between the 2- pirates plague the Baltic and northern Germany will likely distract Denmark away from Sweden.

    Current roster until 1500s seems adequate with small changes.

    12. Hungary: Begins at war with Ottomans and allied with Wallachia... some lands in the west are independent as Habsburgs and HRE have dominion. Good relations with HRE, Wallachia, and Poland-Lithuania.

    Roster needs work but will do for initial release of map.

    13. Maranids: Begins at war with Castile and Portugal. Control over most of Morocco and Granada but not controlling all of N Africa.

    Roster needs work.

    14. Venice: Begins at war with Ottomans and in control of Crete and a couple other provinces I haven't decided how to indicate Venice power. Largest and most developed city in Europe, large fleets and good relations with most of Europe aside from other Italian powers.

    Roster adequate until 1500s.

    15. Crown of Aragon: Begins at war only with ERE. Controls some lands in Spain, Sardinia, Sicily, and parts of S Italy. Population in Spain low due to plagues and Reconquista wars and expulsion of Muslims.

    Roster is strong and seems good until mid 1500s with a few changes.

    16. Moscovy: Begins as allies/vassals of Golden Horde. Controls most of the the former Rus lands with exception of Polotsk and Tver while Kiev and some other lands are under Poland-Lithuania rule.

    Roster needs serious work.

    17. Jalayrids: Begins at peace and controlling only 2-3 regions.

    Roster probably some mix of Seljuk, Mongol, and K-Shah with some work needed.

    18. Milan: Begins at peace. Genoa or Milan is a tough question but Genoa was just ended in its golden age in 1390 while Duchy of Milan wasn't official until after 1390. Milan was already powerful and the Duchy title is only later bestowed to recognize that.

    Roster will be mostly Genoa's which seems great until mid 1500s.

    19. Portugal: Begins at war with Marinids and poised to invade northern Morocco. Also poor relations with Castile and a fortified border in the north.

    Roster probably need serious work post 1400s.

    20. Karamanids/White Sheep Turkomens? Not sure if both of these will be in but certainly at least 1. Would start at peace with neighbors but plenty of targets around.

    Roster would be some combo of Turk, Armenian, Kurd, and Persian- probably need alot of adjustments.

    21. Novgorod: Begins at peace but with some armies and merchants in Finland where Sweden will probably start with Turku under their control.

    Roster needs as much help as Moscovy.

    22. Serbian Despotate: Begins as allies/vassals of Ottomans but good relations with Hungary despite that Hungary is at war with Ottomans. I am guessing AI will usually declare war with Hungary or break relations with Ottomans which might be ok.

    Roster probably needs serious work but might be able to be cobbled together from existing units given new names and some stat adjustments.

    23. Burgundy: Burgundy was pursing territorial expansions and was acting as kingdom with no overlord but would reconcile with France and then fall apart within 100 years of the start date and so seems wrong to have existing in 1500s but it played important and irreplaceable role prior to that and without the death of the male line could easily have continued strongly.

    Roster will probably be a mix of French, Flemish, and HRE.

    24. Wallachia: Begins at war with Ottomans and probably allied with Hungary and HRE.

    Roster complete- I have developed their roster but probably will need to tweak it so AI doesn't die super fast to Ottomans but also isn't overpowered.

    25. Sweden: Nominally part of Kalmar Union but King Albert is still alive and the Swede nobility is not interested in having either Albert of Denmark in charge. Start with 2 or 3 regions... probably 3 but low relations with almost all nearby neighbors.

    Roster would be borrowed from Denmark mostly and maybe some BoftB if Caesar is ok but needs serious work in later eras.

    26. ERE: Almost tempted not to include ERE but I think the chance for a comeback and the fact that ERE was still scheming diplomatically all over Europe entitles it to a place. Start with 2 regions at least but Trebizond might better start rebel.

    Roster: Probably consist of many mercenaries early and with a revival the look would probably be copied from a mix of Ottoman and Crown of Aragon/Italian factions. Would need alot of work.

    27. Swiss: Seeing how HRE will stack up and the inclusion of Burgundy and Milan make Swiss a necessity. Plus I think they will be very, very fun though with a much more limited roster than some players might be used to.

    Roster will incorporate current Swiss mercenaries with some crossbow, gunpowder, light cavalry scouts/generals(phase 2 might be infantry generals) and light infantry. Not much versatility but with just about the best infantry in the game and not afraid to adopt gunpowder it should be a fun faction.

    28. Scotland: The balance between Scotland and France alliance vs England and Burgundy should be interesting and Scotland despite being fairly weak relatively was a thorn in England's side even in 1400s.

    29. Hafsids: The chance to play as a Barbary faction is too great as well as there should not be a blank spot on the map there when Crown of Aragon, Venice, and France had to deal with the raids and attacks.

    Roster will need serious work- some mix of current Moors, Sicily, and Spanish probably as many refugees from the Reconquista ended up in Tunis.

    30. Safavids: Will be in and clinging to south shore of the Caspian as I just can't see Timurids clinging to power until 1650 and I dislike horde faction emergence. Also there seems to be some justification for having Safavids in as once Timur died his empire fell apart quickly despite being the most powerful in 1390. I think Timurs can be having trouble early in 1400s as most of their armies will be used up and they will probably be in some debt. Then Ottomans, Safavids, surviving Golden Horde, and Ilkhans have a chance to expand into Persia.

    Roster likely to be a blend of K-Shah and current Turks renamed and different stats at first. In phase 2 hopefully much more accurate roster can be made with maybe even custom skins.

    31. Papal States: The Pope enjoyed considerable power until 1500s and even after the Reformation among Catholics until the dominance of nation states in 1700s. So probably Crusades will still exist but with quite high costs.
    Last edited by Ichon; February 16, 2012 at 04:39 AM.

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    Ichon's Avatar Centurio Primus Ordine
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    Default Re: 1390 map and late campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Minotaur View Post
    poland-lithuania? nah, too early, how they can be "allies" if they fought each other at 15 c. after Vytautas and Jagielos death?
    Yeah it seems a bit early but how else can what happened be represented? Starting from this time both states were usually ruled by members of the same family or married back into the family when it spread out. Nearly every other ruler signed further treaties binding the states more closely together. If we have HRE and Moscovy mostly together when there were several battles fought between rival houses then I think Poland-Lithuania can be mostly together. It also free up a faction slot which I think will be an advantage.

    Even starting them as an alliance with strong relations seems weird as there were no major wars between them though alot of duplicity and rival houses and factions fighting for control.

  8. #8
    Aruthiel's Avatar Hastatas Posterior
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    Default Re: 1390 map and late campaign

    One question:

    No Byzantine Empire?








  9. #9
    Shashu
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    Default Re: 1390 map and late campaign

    ERE = Eastern Roman Empire --> Byzantine Empire

  10. #10
    Caesar Clivus's Avatar SS Forum Moderator
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    Default Re: 1390 map and late campaign

    Shouldn't the Golden Horde be split up into different Khanates by 1390?

    Also, Novgorod shouldn't start as allies or vassals of Muscovy.

    Also, I have been putting some thought into a roster for Muscovy lately
    Last edited by Caesar Clivus; September 04, 2011 at 07:44 AM.

    BftB2 UPDATED 22nd DECEMBER. Member of the Complete Byzantine Unit Roster team

  11. #11
    Ichon's Avatar Centurio Primus Ordine
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    Default Re: 1390 map and late campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Caesar Clivus View Post
    Shouldn't the Golden Horde be split up into different Khanates by 1390?

    Also, Novgorod shouldn't start as allies or vassals of Muscovy.

    Also, I have been putting some thought into a roster for Muscovy lately
    Golden Horde in 1390 was in its last united phase just prior to the invasion of Timur where they had actually managed to sack Moscow. After Timur won and sacked many of the hordes towns and put the most powerful princes on the run the Horde split into various Khanates but were occasionally nearly reunited until 1480s when suffered several defeats in a row and Ottomans made the Crimean Khans their vassals. I thought about putting in Nogai or early Crimean Khanates but I'm not sure any would be self sufficient or portray the continuing threat that the steppe tribes remained until 1700s.

    Sarai and Sarai-Juk are likely to be the largest cities of the Horde with only a few other towns which will make them smaller than almost all their neighbors. Further dividing them is a hard choice given they didn't completely disintegrate for almost 100 years after the start date. The only reason I even considered it is Timur defeats them in 1395 but doesn't pursue his victory after sacking old Sarai. I think I'd rather start with Timur invading and see where the game goes. Sometimes Golden Horde might be completely defeated, other times maybe it lives. Splitting it up before the invasion occurs seems would be a waste of a faction slot as the faction nearest Timur is likely to be completely defeated quite early.

    I wasn't sure how to portray Novgorod but I thought by 1390 they were being consistently interfered with by Moscovy. If not that is no big deal as the fighting between Sweden and Novgorod should be its own little sphere without Moscovy being dragged in.

    Well anything you want to tell me about Moscovy and roster would be helpful as my reading on that area are extremely lacking after 1100s. That area and eastern Anatolia/western Persia are going to be the most difficult for me since it seems many of the best sources are hard to find in English or German though I haven't had the time to do full searches.
    Last edited by Ichon; September 04, 2011 at 01:23 PM.

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    ShockBlast's Avatar Equites Cohortales
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    Default Re: 1390 map and late campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichon View Post
    24. Wallachia: Begins at war with Ottomans and probably allied with Hungary and HRE.

    Roster will need lot of work- I have really limited ideas how to portray them. Seems difficult to give them strength to fight Ottomans without making overpowered but might be one of the most difficult and rewarding campaigns. Probably start with only 2 regions.
    Here is a link to the Wallachian roster from Tsardoms : http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=349035

    It's not complete since they plan on making mercenaries much more important but even the partial roster can be useful.What i can tell you about the Wallachian army is that it was flexible,mobile,lightly armoured (compared to the western armies) and liked to use composite bows a lot.

    I'll also PM Romano-Dacis,he has a lot of knowledge about that period since he was the one that reseached the Wallachian roster.

    Can you spare 2 or 3 unit slots for Wallachia ?



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    Serbian Hussar's Avatar Taihō no heishi
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    Default Re: 1390 map and late campaign

    Tsardoms team will not share their models until the Tsardoms mod is finished.

  14. #14
    ShockBlast's Avatar Equites Cohortales
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    Default Re: 1390 map and late campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Serbian Hussar View Post
    Tsardoms team will not share their models until the Tsardoms mod is finished.
    And here is the Inquisition.
    They might not share nor did i suggest sharing but those pictures come with information that might help or Tsardoms doesn't share information either?



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    Serbian Hussar's Avatar Taihō no heishi
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    Default Re: 1390 map and late campaign

    It's not inquisition, I'm not part of the Tsardoms team I'm just saying becouse I have asked for some units for my submod, and that's what they said to me :p

  16. #16
    Ichon's Avatar Centurio Primus Ordine
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    Default Re: 1390 map and late campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by ShockBlast View Post
    It's not complete since they plan on making mercenaries much more important but even the partial roster can be useful.What i can tell you about the Wallachian army is that it was flexible,mobile,lightly armoured (compared to the western armies) and liked to use composite bows a lot.

    Can you spare 2 or 3 unit slots for Wallachia ?
    Yeah- I'd like to make Wallachia more lightly armored but still competitive. I'm starting to test giving most skirmishers hide ability and playing with defense skill and movement speeds. Not sure how that will turn out yet. Unit slots shouldn't be a problem for quite awhile. Starting in 1390 means there is quite alot of older units which the advance of tech has made obsolete. Most units from before the New Era event can probably go. Eventually I am sure units will become tight again but the current objective is to get a 1390 map out with reasonable factions ported over where possible. Adding new units and models will be the next phase still a couple months away.

    Or did you mean regions? Wallachia will get at least 2 regions- more than that is going to be tough. They start at war with Ottomans initially and allied with several other factions- if that proves too tough then maybe have them start at peace as I'd like Wallachia when played by AI to last 20-50 turns ideally. More than that is great but not necessary. However I'd like them to be one of the more interesting and tough campaigns for a player to not only survive but expand against western armors and Ottoman gunpowder and cavalry without having much of those in their native rosters.
    Last edited by Ichon; September 05, 2011 at 12:31 AM.

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    Ichon's Avatar Centurio Primus Ordine
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    Default Re: 1390 map and late campaign

    Reference map will be http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=455434 FP's 1132 map project until I finish a spreadsheet similar to what FP did but adjusted for 1390. Basically this is for Serbian Hussar but posting it public for comments.

    The black dots are changed from FP's 1132 map so far. I'll add more over this next week- many of the same populations remained important in 1390 as 1132 but some changes can be represented.

    Explanations for current proposals-

    1. Norwich- important city of England. Likely to drop Caervon for it as Wales in 1390 was mostly subjugated by numerous castles.
    2. Schleswig- key to many of the wars in northern Europe in this period along with the Hansa cities, Novgorod, and Sweden.
    3. Rostock- large Hansa city and to give more room for contests in the north coast and to improve Baltic trade.
    4. Ceuta- repeated Catholic invasions of Maranids around this area in this period and the several ports and towns in the area combined into 1 representative.
    5. Bursa- obvious importance to Ottomans, probably simple exchange with Nicaea.
    6. Sarai-Juk as 2nd most important Horde city
    7. Vologda- contested region between Moscovy and Novgorod and shows Rus expansion NE.
    8. Tver- important to reflect contest between Moscow and Tver which wasn't fully settled for some time after 1390.
    9. Ardabil- first capitol of the Safavids and important Shia center in 1390.
    10. Sari- Tabaristan was important region for development of Shia under Mongols and then Timur- no single large important city I could find but Sari existed and was protected by mountains and relatively independent many of the early Safavid armies came from here.

    Issues- how to portray Crimea in 1390? Genoa claim? Independent, Golden Horde or nucleus of Crimean Horde?
    Status of islands- Cyprus, Corsica, Visby... not unimportant to the era but all surpassed by events and soon after 1390 rendered relatively unimportant in the larger scale. Visby is likely to stay but not sure of the other 2. Genoa has the best claim to both since Kingdom of Cyprus wouldn't continue to exist without Genoese fleets and mercenaries in 1390 and Venice buys the islands from Mamluks when Genoa becomes involved in trying to support Constantinople and passage into their Black Sea colonies shortly after 1400.

    Comments on how to portray Balkans... Serbian Despotate and Wallachia I want to start with 2 regions each at least and no more than 3. I think Tarnovo rebel at start but with nearby Ottoman armies to show that Bulgaria is soon to be under Ottoman control. Beyond that I am trying to decide which cities represent the region best. Ottomans I think should start with 3-5 regions of probably 10-12 available. Where should the rest go in 1390?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails work1map1370.jpg  
    Last edited by Ichon; September 05, 2011 at 03:41 AM.

  18. #18
    Serbian Hussar's Avatar Taihō no heishi
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    Default Re: 1390 map and late campaign

    Serbian Despotate could strat with Belgrade as its capital and one other castle. Either Peć or Novo Brdo. Peć was the seat of the Serbian Orthodox Church and a major religious center. Novo Brdo was a large fortress which had one of the biggest mines in Europe where high quality armour was made. I would go for Novo Brdo for its size and military importance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novo_Brdo). Peć could be PSF. Golubac was another important fortress in Serbia, but because of the settlement limit isues it can be PSF also (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/album...ictureid=51350). Smederevo was in times capital of Serbian Despotate and a large fortress, but as stated before about limits, it can also be PSF (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/album...ictureid=51349, http://www.twcenter.net/forums/album...ictureid=51346)

  19. #19
    Ichon's Avatar Centurio Primus Ordine
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    Default Re: 1390 map and late campaign

    I think Belgrade and Novo Brdno make the most sense for Serbian Despotate. Smederevo was built later in reaction to Belgrade going to Hungary which I don't think the game can replicate. Player can build a fort there if they want. Pecs as PSF is good though. I think Belgrade start as T4 city with Novo Brdno probably a fortress though its tempting to make a citadel as its one of the few areas that seems fortified enough to justify a citadel and it might help Serbian Despotate survive. Though probably fortress is best. Not many more regions in 1390 will start at a higher level than 1100 since populations still haven't recovered from plagues.

    Wallachia is more difficult to decide where to put.

  20. #20
    Gogolometro's Avatar Princeps Prior
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    Default Re: 1390 map and late campaign

    1390 is a great age for Wallachia. We have Mircea the Elder, the guy who beat ottomans and than we have Dracula.
    What was the almighty hungarian hero, the Valencia guy or Wallace, but Dracula will be just full dread.
    Maybe we will see the Orleans Virgin?

    Kill Them All, Let God Sort Them Out!


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