[Preview] Duchy of Croatia

[Greve Af Göteborg]

Really awesome preview.

I think that the units look like a mix between Byzantine and Rus.

[absinthia]

i know i have previously stated, with confidence, that it is not possible to change titles. luckily i might have been wrong

come to think of it there is a way of changing characters titles, at least for family members and generals.
kingdoms allows for up to 9 levels of charactres based on traits, this function is used for the Teutonic order of "Kingdoms: Teutonic campaign". just not sure if it works for faction leaders

as said, it should be possible to change character titles by way of traits.

but, to change a faction name it would require a spare faction slot. i am quite certain...

[matija191]

well matija, neither mattheus nor I ever really believed in presence of 2H axemen among Croats...

Your fail, not mine....

oh no, it definetly wasnt

Actually, it was, but you know so well, and you know better than me, so I apologise.

EDIT: But since you put it in that way....

Na trećoj se slici nalazi primjerak nađen u koritu Cetine pokraj Trilja.To je inačica tzv. T sjekira s dvostrano proširenim sječivom.Vrat sječiva ima na gornjem kraju šiljastu grbu.Srodna sjekira pronađena je i kod Nartskih Novaka, a nalažene su i u srednjem Podunavlju.Ovaj tip sjekire datiran je u prvu polovicu 6. stoljeća i proglašen je vjerojatno lokalnim kasnoantičkim prozvodima, (Milošević, 1988., str. 200.).Nisam sklon tom zaključku jer analogni primjerak iz Nartskih Novaka ima oblik nasada i stražnji čekićasti završetak (na kakav se ne nailazi na kasnoantičkim sjekirama), srodan je nekim vrstama vikinških sjekira iz 10. i 11. stoljeća (Kirpičnikov, 1966., str. 30.; njegovi tipovi III. i IV.).Stoga mi se da je primjerenije da se datira u 10. stoljeće.

Source: Hrvatski vojnik, Tomislav Aralica

Picture of that axe you can see here, at the page 127.So, its clear now, Croats did use a large, two-handed axes, at least from the 10th century.I have send that article to you and Matko several times, but both of you have ignored it.Honestly, I dont care, because I prove my point (actually, Aralica proved it) - Croats had two-handed axemens in their army!

The Aralica´s article is downloadable here:
http://www.4shared.com/document/qbb17YWM/Sjekire.html

@Matko
I noticed a croatian tricolor in one of the infantry standard - I am pretty shure that Croats didnt use it that time , but still a very nice detail

[Matthæus]

Your fail, not mine....
Actually, it was, but you know so well, and you know better than me, so I apologise.

EDIT: But since you put it in that way....

Source: Hrvatski vojnik, Tomislav Aralica

Picture of that axe you can see here, at the page 127.So, its clear now, Croats did use a large, two-handed axes, at least from the 10th century.I have send that article to you and Matko several times, but both of you have ignored it.Honestly, I dont care, because I prove my point (actually, Aralica proved it) - Croats had two-handed axemens in their army!

The Aralica´s article is downloadable here:
http://www.4shared.com/document/qbb17YWM/Sjekire.html

you proved that two historians disagree on that matter. I choose to believe to one of them, and you the other.
i cannot say there wasn't any 2h axe present in Croatia, but i think it's too rare to be included.

once mod is completed you are welcomed to make sub-mod with that additional unit
you can use one of my models as body and just change weapon.
that way everyone is happy.

@Matko
I noticed a croatian tricolor in one of the infantry standard - I am pretty shure that Croats didnt use it that time , but still a very nice detail

true. it was not meant to be a real tricolor, just a decoration.
it was very common for flags in this time to have differently colored "tails", since red, white and blue are predominant on almost all flags, so i decided to arrange them in that way. would you prefer blue/white/red better ? just kidding

i could put green or brown instead of blue there, but it wouldent fit together with other flags.

[matija191]

you proved that two historians disagree on that matter. I choose to believe to one of them, and you the other.
i cannot say there wasn't any 2h axe present in Croatia, but i think it's too rare to be included.

Aralica against guy named Milošević.I dont need to tell that Aralica is our greatest expert on that matter - honestly I never heard for Milošević, or his works.Since you stand for his opinion, can you number his works that you read?Or why he is so appreciated, more than Aralica?

And Milošević´s theory has holes - read the text.

[Hrobatos]

so how come its my fail? you obviusly wrent kidding about 2H axemen unit, which I know from our previus disscusions

[AnthoniusII]

Jentlemen why don't you enjoy the preview.
Many people worked realy hard for the result.
If Croatians had some famous-in middle ages-warriors for their use of dual handed axes we or someone else could add such a unit later.
We do not create unit rosters of limited unit numbers because we are lazy.
We create as many units we believe that they could give to players the real -as possible-essence of each faction and its armies.
For example:
We could create dual axe croatians, heavy swordmen for Romans, pike men for lombards etc.. Our view is that the mod is not an artistic or number of creations competition. In our dev forum there are hard discusions about armors ,what kind of helmets each faction used and when , what kind of swords,spears,axes etc...Making another unit would not be a problem to Matthaeus. But keeping the roster as accurate as possible is essential. We will not give players rosters for easy victories.
We will provide an educational tool and defeats are very educational believe me. Only when the player will sufair his 1st defeat he will be forced to seak for answers inside his available roster.
That is our main goal.

[Hrobatos]

Making another unit would not be a problem to Matthaeus. But keeping the roster as accurate as possible is essential.

this is exactly what we discused and didnt came to mutualy accepted result.

[NikeBG]

Indeed, it's a good question - does one (or two, or three) find of a two handed axe warrant a special unit? Because, I think I'm right to say, in most countries you'd probably find singular finds from various kinds of weapons, which is logical - equipment wasn't limited to this or that tribe or nation and suddenly stopped a kilometre out of its borders. Especially if it's a useful and/or easy to make one. Thus, I wouldn't be surprised if I can dig up some 2-h axe-heads from Bulgaria as well (which, in all likelihood, will be categorized as Varangian by our historians ), but I wouldn't add yet another unit to the BG roster (I already fear it's too varied, although f.e. we don't have units with much, much, much more popular weapons, like kistens/flails, slings and arcans/lasoes (which can't be included not only because of me worrying about the balance, but also because there are no such animations in M2TW (and I particularly can't imagine how could lasoes work in a game like this), or do we actually have an animator?)). Now, if 2-handed axes (or anything else) are not found in a miniscule ammount, but are somewhat wide-spread (or reported in sources etc), adding them to a faction's roster would be much more reasonable. But that's only my opinion, of course...

[matija191]

Hey guys! I never said that matko or someone else should make such a unit!!!Nor I will it....

I just pointed out that that kind of axe were in use on our areas, which is something what matko and hrobatos ignore....

Btw, matko, I am still waiting for Milošević´s works...

Peace!

[absinthia]

two handed axes are good for chopping firewood and were not uncommon at all, the same with the famous Longbow that was known since ancient times.
the point of the matter is who had the idea of putting such tools to use as weapons in a regular army.
England has been credited with the use of longbows, even though it surely was not a genius English invention of the time. the same with the 2 handed, often called Danish axe, it was not a Danish military invention.

[Hrobatos]

we discused have Croats used them as weapon, and how much, nothing else

[matija191]

@absinthia

true, but these doesnt like to a tool:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Anyway, I am sorry for causing hysteria around here....

[NikeBG]

Aye, there are "wood-axes" and then there are "battle-axes" and they supposedly have some differences in the making (though I have no idea what those differences are exactly, except maybe "longer" and more curved blade, sharper blade-points etc). Although, technically, you can still take your firewood-axe to use in a fight, if you have nothing else at hand.

[matija191]

Hey, is it just me, or upgraded Družina and Pretorianes really look the same?Except the fact that Družina guys have cloaks?

[AnthoniusII]

Hey, is it just me, or upgraded Družina and Pretorianes really look the same?Except the fact that Družina guys have cloaks?

And?
What more could change?
For example ALL provincial byzantine units use the same textures.
What for?
But because they had access to the same armouries. What would be the point of making 2,3 or more scimilar textures?
Both units you mention use the same armors and weapons because they both find them in the same markets ,pay for them the same money etc..
An historical mod is not an artistic competition.
If you see more carefully some croatian units use the same body textures too.. We are interesting in more important things than creating 3 or more chain mail textures (in fact we have more spead up in the rosters).

[Matthæus]

not totally same, similar. pretorianes have different mail hood (coif), some different body textures and unarmored legs.

[Armatus]

looks awesome! lots of reading to do...

[matija191]

not totally same, similar. pretorianes have different mail hood (coif), some different body textures and unarmored legs.

Thanks!

@Anthonius

I understand .

[Cro-Gamer]

Pure awesomenes