Dwarf and Hobbit Ponymen?

[Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze]

Patience, patience, we'll make everyone happy.

I so hate it when Aradan does this

[Cinuz]

As said before, Tolkien didn't mention crossbows.
I don't think this is a reason not to implement them (there are ballistas, so why not crossbows?) but I'd also say it doesn't really fit the Dwarves. Indeed, they *DID* use bows, for hunting at least, and where also skilled with it, so it's not that stupid fantasy stereotype "Dwarves use axes and cannot do archery because they are so heavy-handed".
I think the main point is that Dwarves don't really have use for a long-range weapon: Their fortresses are underground. It is dark, narrow, distances are quite short, pillars standing around, so a bow or sth the like doesn't make a lot of sense. Even in huge halls like in Khazad-dûm melee or short range combat is suited better. And since the Dwarves don't build walls, towers and stuff they also don't have to fight a foe some meters beneath them.

In gameplay terms they could make use of it and a missile unit would be nice. But I assume they'll be able to recruit some of the Dalish units.
If I was in charge to give them a ranged weapon, I'd give them artillery, something like the scorpio.

Nothing to say about the lore...but in the time between the end of the third era and the beginning of the fourth someone could have developed them since there are the ballistas as someone said (was it you? don't remember)...

Anyway, technically speaking, the dwarves would find themselves more comfortable in using crossbows rather than normal bows. I'll explain why:

- First of all, they're dwarves: their arms are little but they're not agile as the hobbits: I think they would find themselves uncomfortable in tending a bow's string because of the way their body are, just saying.

- As you just said their fortress are underground or situeted in some mountains. So I think they would prefer a weapon that shoot its dart stright and with a lot of power, without having to aim high to make the projectiles reach a farer distance, like the bows...

- Anyway, the dwarves doesn't fight only in their fortress, but even in the open ground I believe...I don't think they always wait for an invader to come at their places, but they would even meet them on the field I believe, so there's no point in saying something about their fortress in my opinion.

- They need anyway a long-range unit. Giving them human or elf archers as "support units" would be rather incorrect even for gameplay reasons: what if the dwarves begin a war with the elves? why should they continue to give them aid? On the other hand (personal opinion though) giving them dwarves archers would be strange. I personally would not be convinced by a dwarves bowmen unit...I think crossbows suits them better...giving them, just saying, axe throwers would be good, but they definetly need a long range unit.

Hope my points of view are understandable.




EDIT - Anyway a big fat NO on the dwarves ponymen...about the elves...uhm, maybe they'd look funny to see, so why not?

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

let's wait if we can convert tank Models from CNC to Carriage Ballista for RTW use, I'd like to give the Dwarves flame tank

LotR TW has m-2 bradleys.

[Spike]

LotR TW has m-2 bradleys.

I know, but flame tank is cooler (plus their attacks will be much more useful in cramped underground hall like the Dwarves have - remember the NOD devil's tongue?

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

The what?

[Spike]

The what?

you obviously never play CNC

ok, back to topic then...
since Aradan think I'm a physic, Dwarven Blunderbusses must be an official unit then

[Thangaror]

Nothing to say about the lore...but in the time between the end of the third era and the beginning of the fourth someone could have developed them since there are the ballistas as someone said (was it you? don't remember)...

You cannot really argue this way. Mankind exists in Middle-earth for appromximately 7,000 years. By end of the first age, their techniques are similar to those of the late antique of our world.
Therefore they actually should have developed gunpowder in mid Second Age and way superiour techniques by end of the Third Age and would fly around at speed of light in spaceships.

- First of all, they're dwarves: their arms are little but they're not agile as the hobbits: I think they would find themselves uncomfortable in tending a bow's string because of the way their body are, just saying.

Warhammer Stereotype

- As you just said their fortress are underground or situeted in some mountains. So I think they would prefer a weapon that shoot its dart stright and with a lot of power, without having to aim high to make the projectiles reach a farer distance, like the bows...

Underground they don't need a long ranged weapon. If they can use one, they will be in a huge hall, were the projectile could fly in a parabole.

- Anyway, the dwarves doesn't fight only in their fortress, but even in the open ground I believe...I don't think they always wait for an invader to come at their places, but they would even meet them on the field I believe, so there's no point in saying something about their fortress in my opinion.

Sure they do. But in an open battle Dwarves wouldn't need a missile unit I think.

- They need anyway a long-range unit. Giving them human or elf archers as "support units" would be rather incorrect even for gameplay reasons:

Who's speaking of Elves? Dwarves will have an unbreakable alliance with Dale, and Dale has good archers. So giving the Dwarves Dalish Longbowmen would be quite sensible and true to the lore.

[Cinuz]

You cannot really argue this way. Mankind exists in Middle-earth for appromximately 7,000 years. By end of the first age, their techniques are similar to those of the late antique of our world.
Therefore they actually should have developed gunpowder in mid Second Age and way superiour techniques by end of the Third Age and would fly around at speed of light in spaceships.

I think anyway that you can't argue this way either, because the Middle Earth is a totally different world from our own...Gunpowder?Spaceships? those are just things related to our world...if after 7000 years the mankind is still stucked in a sort of medieval age in the Middle Earth, there's surely a reason. Anyway, it's still plausible that a technological "innovation" so simple as the crossbow (are you aware that the first rudimental crossbows were around during the IVth century bc?) shouldn't be something that impossible to reach for the middle earth inhabitants...

Warhammer Stereotype

Don't know, I've never put any interest in warhammer

Underground they don't need a long ranged weapon. If they can use one, they will be in a huge hall, were the projectile could fly in a parabole.

I think a parabole turn pretty much useless when you got a roof over your head where your arrows could hit and then lose they potential. "No", you'll say, "dwarves have huge halls", then I'll respond you yes, but even if they can build an hall that has its roof at 100 meters of highness, an arrow can reach that highness with ease.

Even because, if you want to use a parabole in an hall (when after all your enemy are so close to you and then it would better to shoot stright ahead to don't waste time) you have to aim really high, so that your arrow come back somewhat "near" to you...this make the reach of the roof even more plausible...in such a closed and restricted place, crossbows would be more useful than bows, for the reasons that I have already explained (parabole-roof, distance from the enemy, necessity to shoot right ahead). I hope I explained this well, otherwise I'll make a draw

Sure they do. But in an open battle Dwarves wouldn't need a missile unit I think.

I'm talking about the gameplay

Who's speaking of Elves? Dwarves will have an unbreakable alliance with Dale, and Dale has good archers. So giving the Dwarves Dalish Longbowmen would be quite sensible and true to the lore.

Elves were just an example of course

Mmh, don't like the unbreakable alliances, they remove liberty from the gameplay...anyway...why do you say that it would be true to the lore? Because of the battle at the end of The Hobbit? If that's the case, that I'd like to make you notice that right ten minutes before the beginning of the battle, the Dalish men wanted to attack the dwarves...

-------------

Edit - I know this goes against the things that I'm saying but now that I'm thinking about The Hobbit, I think I remember one or two of the dwarves armed with a bow [Fili and Kili maybe?]. Anyway, I really don't remember, but maybe someone should check

[Thangaror]

I think anyway that you can't argue this way either, because the Middle Earth is a totally different world from our own...Gunpowder?Spaceships? those are just things related to our world...if after 7000 years the mankind is still stucked in a sort of medieval age in the Middle Earth, there's surely a reason. Anyway, it's still plausible that a technological "innovation" so simple as the crossbow (are you aware that the first rudimental crossbows were around during the IVth century bc?) shouldn't be something that impossible to reach for the middle earth inhabitants...

Of course my argument is somewhat crude, although Saruman had developed gunpowder.
But in this 7,000 years there had been only a little bit technical developement. This was done in Númenor and with her downfall, most of it was lost (or was lost during the first years in exile).

I think a parabole turn pretty much useless when you got a roof over your head where your arrows could hit and then lose they potential. "No", you'll say, "dwarves have huge halls", then I'll respond you yes, but even if they can build an hall that has its roof at 100 meters of highness, an arrow can reach that highness with ease.

With a mediocre bow of 45 pounds draw weight (like my own), you can easily hit targets 30m away with a nearly straight shot (that straight that the archer could not use the bow if an ally is standing in front of him). At a distance of 50-70 m the arrow the archer could shoot over the heads of his allies If he's standing some 20m behind them. At a distance of 100m the highest point of the fligth will be at maybe 15 m (the physic guys around may calculate it).
Now warbows do have a draw weigth of 150# - 170#, so much more than my own bow. Also 150 m is more or less the highest distance for an aimed shot.

Even because, if you want to use a parabole in an hall (when after all your enemy are so close to you and then it would better to shoot stright ahead to don't waste time) you have to aim really high, so that your arrow come back somewhat "near" to you...this make the reach of the roof even more plausible...in such a closed and restricted place, crossbows would be more useful than bows, for the reasons that I have already explained (parabole-roof, distance from the enemy, necessity to shoot right ahead). I hope I explained this well, otherwise I'll make a draw

What?! You want too shot the arrow almost vertically into the air? Let me tell you that any vertical shot with a bow is highly dangerous because it's really hard to estimate where the arrow hits. It may be 20m away (so further than you planned) or might hit right the place where you stood a second ago.

Mmh, don't like the unbreakable alliances, they remove liberty from the gameplay

It makes sense especially in the case of Dale and the Dwarves. They'd go at each other's gut within the first three turns.

...anyway...why do you say that it would be true to the lore? Because of the battle at the end of The Hobbit? If that's the case, that I'd like to make you notice that right ten minutes before the beginning of the battle, the Dalish men wanted to attack the dwarves...

No, I'm refering to the Battle of Dale in the War of the Ring.

Edit - I know this goes against the things that I'm saying but now that I'm thinking about The Hobbit, I think I remember one or two of the dwarves armed with a bow [Fili and Kili maybe?]. Anyway, I really don't remember, but maybe someone should check

Well, the Dwarves receive a bow from Beorn and they use it to hunt deer in Mirkwood. Also Thorin was hunting when Smaug captured Erebor. It's not stated explicitely, but I assume he was carrying a bow then (for when you're not up to hunt boar, you'll use a bow).

[Cinuz]

1. Anyway, you have to consider that the soldier will use a warbow in battle.

2. No, I wasn't referring to a vertical shoot with the bow (I misexplained myself sorry), but to a particulary high parabole, so that the arrow doesn't go too far from your lines, if the enemy is close to you...mmmh...i believe i'd be better post a draw...[ahahah by the way this part of the discussion reminded me of this movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yviQ...eature=related ]

3. Then the dwarves and Dale could break their alliance later in game?

4. Okay

5. Then dwarves armed with bow actually are in Tolkiens stories...well, good then

[Eohelm]

Of course my argument is somewhat crude, although Saruman had developed gunpowder.

Please forgive me sir, you seem to know quite a bit about LotR lore, but Saruman did not develop gunpowder. That was, in fact, a Jackson invention for the films, something to explain what was, in the books, simply Saruman's evil sorcery. Tolkien never, ever states gunpowder.

The reason that this is a big deal in FATW, (despite the fact that I'm still waiting for my BI copy to come in the mail, so I can't play it yet...) is that from what I've read on these forums, FA is completely book-lore dependant. The books are the guide for this mod, whereas Third Age Total War for example relies on book and movie references.

So, for the sake of Fourth Age Total War, there is no such thing as gunpowder, because Tolkien never placed gunpowder in Arda. That is, if FATW sticks with its book-roots.

[Thangaror]

The bells of day had scarcely rung out agian, a mockery in the unlightened dark, when far away he saw fires spring up, across in the dim spaces where the walls fo the Pelennor stood. The watchmen cried aloud, and all men in the City stood to arms. Now ever and anon there was a red flash, and slowly throught hte heavy air duell rumbles could be heard.
'They have taken the wall!' men cried. 'They are blasting breaches in it. They are coming!'

- The Siege of Gondor

Truely Tolkien never mentions 'gunpowder'.
But what is this blasting-fire, if not a simple explosive? It's definitively not sorcery, this kind of spellcasting does not exist in Tolkien's world.
Anyhow, Saruman or Sauron would be unable to blast walls hundreds of miles away from their abode by magic. It's a plain bomb that causes the explosion and there's nothing magical on it. It's chemistry, one can assume that Saruman and Sauron knew quite a deal about 'alchemy' and the elements. Even Gandalf knew about this, remember his fireworks (although these were magically 'improved' no doubt).

[Figaro]

I'm never quite convinced by the Saruman-used-gunpowder argument. That's obv. the way the films chose to interpret it; but although you say that this kind of sorcery doesn't exist in Tolkein but Gandalf uses some kind of "blinding flash" which causes a smell like gunpowder (which I suppose, could be a grenade as much as a smell!) against the Goblin King in the Hobbit.

That said, I think Gunpowder in Middle Earth does make sense, mainly because as you point out. Gandalf definitely does use fireworks. Perhaps there should be a gunpowder unit in FATW? Not muskets or anything silly like that; something more akin to middle-ages Chinese rockets.

[Eohelm]

That said, I think Gunpowder in Middle Earth does make sense, mainly because as you point out. Gandalf definitely does use fireworks. Perhaps there should be a gunpowder unit in FATW? Not muskets or anything silly like that; something more akin to middle-ages Chinese rockets.

Personally, I feel that would kind of ruin the immersion. But it's a personal opinion, and you're by all means welcome to yours.

[Eohelm]

The bells of day had scarcely rung out agian, a mockery in the unlightened dark, when far away he saw fires spring up, across in the dim spaces where the walls fo the Pelennor stood. The watchmen cried aloud, and all men in the City stood to arms. Now ever and anon there was a red flash, and slowly throught hte heavy air duell rumbles could be heard.
'They have taken the wall!' men cried. 'They are blasting breaches in it. They are coming!'

- The Siege of Gondor

Truely Tolkien never mentions 'gunpowder'.
But what is this blasting-fire, if not a simple explosive? It's definitively not sorcery, this kind of spellcasting does not exist in Tolkien's world.
Anyhow, Saruman or Sauron would be unable to blast walls hundreds of miles away from their abode by magic. It's a plain bomb that causes the explosion and there's nothing magical on it. It's chemistry, one can assume that Saruman and Sauron knew quite a deal about 'alchemy' and the elements. Even Gandalf knew about this, remember his fireworks (although these were magically 'improved' no doubt).

That is by all means possible, and you may by all means be right about Gandalf's fireworks. It is indeed hard to imagine fireworks without fire, isn't it?

As for the situation with Saruman, I has a theory, and it starts with a quote. (My apologies if that last sentence sounded condescending...I didn't intend it to be, and don't quite know how else to word it.)

"'Then let us defend it, and hope!' said Aragorn. Even as they spoke there came a blare of trumpets. Then there was a crash and a flash of flame and smoke. The waters of the Deeping-stream poured out hissing and foaming: they were choked no longer, a gaping hole was blasted in the wall. A host of dark shapes poured in.
'Devilry of Saruman!' cried Aragorn. 'They have crept in the culvert again, while we talked, and they have lit the fire of Orthanc beneath our feet. 'Elendil, Elendil!'"

-Two Towers, "Helm's Deep"

Now, Aragorn's zealousness aside, (lol? Anyone?...meh) that does indeed sound like a bomb. I will grant you that, definately. There are a couple reasons that I would not really claim it as gunpowder, however.

Firstly would be Aragorn calling it "Devilry of Saruman". Now, I do realize that he could just be embellishing a bit, what with his blood running hot from a pitched battle and, well, Tolkien's love of embellishment in dialogue. (Ever spell a word and think it looks just...wrong, even if it may be right? "dialogue"...). Aragorn, however, seems a very educated man in terms of the more vague things that drive this world. He isn't superstitious without any backing as Eomer tended to be when we were first introduced to him. It's the word "Devilry" that has me thinking here, but that isn't really concrete evidence. That's my own brain poking and bugging me to speculate when I'm reading.

Secondly--and I'm not attacking you or your quote, ser--is that we were distinctly discussing Saruman, and your quote is that of Sauron. Now, one was the slave of the other, at least for a time, but Sauron could not have possibly been stupid enough to give Saruman the knowledge of what is essentially a claymore mine in a knife fight.

What the above paragraph is getting to is that Saruman most likely had a different way of getting similar results to Sauron. Aragorn refers to it as "The Fire of Orthanc" which is another part that leads me to believe that this isn't gunpowder. Gandalf and Saruman are both Istharti, (spelling? I'm pretty sure I got that wrong. But you know what I mean) which means that they are both essentially of Orthanc. Gandalf, when he was raised to the rank of the White, most likely inherited Orthanc in a way. He just never really claimed it.

With that being said, and I promise my ramblings are going somewhere, thank you if you've stayed with me this long, is that when Gandalf, in The Hobbit, uses a sudden flash that smelled of smoke to kill the Goblin King he was essentially using a smaller version of the "Fire of Orthanc". At least, to me, that is what happened. So, it could be that what destroyed the walls at Helm's Deep was not, in fact, gunpowder, but was actually a vague sort of explosive magic that was never really explained.

But that's the beauty of LotR, isn't it? We can all have our little explanations for anything...so you're right, and I'm right, in a way. It's all what we each feel is best. But either way. It's nice to have intelligent debate with someone. Other forums, you hardly ever see this kind of thing...

[Thangaror]

I'm never quite convinced by the Saruman-used-gunpowder argument. That's obv. the way the films chose to interpret it; but although you say that this kind of sorcery doesn't exist in Tolkein but Gandalf uses some kind of "blinding flash" which causes a smell like gunpowder (which I suppose, could be a grenade as much as a smell!) against the Goblin King in the Hobbit.

IMHO there is no logical explanation for the explosion except an explosive device. It simply has to be something that has been prepared by Saruman, but then brought by the Orcs to Helm's Deep, placed in the culvert and triggered the explosion. If it was really pure magic, Saruman would have to come to HD in person.

That said, I think Gunpowder in Middle Earth does make sense, mainly because as you point out. Gandalf definitely does use fireworks. Perhaps there should be a gunpowder unit in FATW? Not muskets or anything silly like that; something more akin to middle-ages Chinese rockets.

I don't like that idea. While I'm convinced gunpowder was used, only a handful of people knew about it and I doubt anyone apart from the evil guys perceived it's potential.
There's a mod for FATW though, the Dwarven Blunderbuss.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

I also imagined the wall crumbling as some kind of explosive substance being crammed under the wall. I disagree with that being specifically gunpowder, though. Could be anything.

[TheDarkKnight]

This is the mostly lively the FATW section has been in a while

[Eohelm]

This is the mostly lively the FATW section has been in a while

I'm so excited to play the game. My copy of Rome: Gold is coming in the mail soon. I check my mailbox every day. I'm more looking forward to some of these mods than the game itself.

[Thangaror]

@ Blatta Optima: Sure. Could be trinitrotoluene or dynamite. But regarding the complexity of producing TNT, nitroglycerine and other modern explosives, gunpowder is more probable.

@ Eohelm: Vanilla is terribly unbalanced IMHO. I wouldn't even bother playing it.