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Thread: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

  1. #161

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    It is said HoME 10; Myths Transformed) that Morgoth was filled with a nihilistic rage against all creation not of him and all living creatures in the world not of him [a.k.a every life sice only Eru could give that] and he would kill all and destroy all if he would gained the full control of Arda. Including Elves, Men, Orcs, trolls, animals etc etc

    Sauron on the other hand did 'just' wanted to dominate all and rule as a god-king, in Myths Transformed it's directly stated he had not his former master's nihilistic side.
    Not sure what part you are thinking of FC, but guess that ought to do with the fact that Sauron is not the forgiving type, any opposition he gladly retaliate upon.
    Sauron would not kill off Men who obey him, he want to rule over them (PJ's films always added a to me pure dumb black & white-level on this, with all talk about the end for Men; Saruman in FotR the book even try to lure Gandalf to help him take control of the new Age of Men).
    Actually if Morgoth even would killed everyone is unsure, I do not think so, as in other place in MT it's said that he during his reign came to like to be Lord over others as well as comments elsewhere that he wanted subjects.
    Last edited by Ngugi; January 15, 2013 at 08:54 AM.

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  2. #162
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    He would have Ngugi, in his vain quest to remake the world in his own image. That seems quite clear to me from MT. And he would be left to rage at nothingness if he had succeeded, for he could not create life; only Eru could. It seems to me the ultimate irony to want to destroy all not of your creation and remake the world in your picture, but you are doomed to fail.

    Melkor got to obsessed by his own theme that he did not notice this in Eru's design, another irony is that Sauron was paying more attention and knew more of Eru's grand scheme of things and thus comprehended more of it. And that is likely the reason he does not want to remake, but merely to rule. MT says so directly.

    I find it interesting with this being the case, Sauron still choose to follow Melkor...

  3. #163

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    I say MT; VII; (iii) tell us Morgoth had "fallen into even more petty desires" [Edit: my colours and underlining; Tolkien's italic]
    Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been weakened: in power and prestige (he had lost and failed to recover one of the Silmarils), and above all in mind.
    He had become absorbed in 'kingship', and though a tyrant of ogre-size and monstrous power, this was a vast fall even from his former wickedness of hate, and his terrible nihilism.
    He had fallen to like being a tyrant-king with conquered slaves, and vast obedient armies.
    This weakness in appriciation of 'kingship' do not appear in VII; (i) where the nihilistic side is brought up, and I deem that it, as Tolkien in this quote put's it, overcome even his nihilistic Destruction urges in favour of another urge - the one of a Ruler.
    Last edited by Ngugi; January 15, 2013 at 12:45 PM.

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  4. #164

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mattttb View Post
    1. What does Sauron do next?

    2. What happens to his armies of orcs?

    3. Having conquered all of Middle Earth, what will Sauron do with its lands?
    None of these can be answered until people understand Sauron's motives.

    During the Music of the Ainur, Melkor began seeding the song with his own chords. Many Ainu fell to Melkor's corruption, but only one Maia named Mairon (later to be known as Sauron) opposed Melkor. Eru stopped the Music and informed the Ainur that the Music would create the world, and challenged that even though it was corrupted, it would not be swayed away from his plan. Mairon grew worried as he was a lover of order and coordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction.

    When Eru created E out of the Music and allowed the spirits to enter, Mairon went forth as a force of good and order. Only when Mairon saw the true power and corruption of Melkor did he begin to change. Eru did nothing to stop Melkor's spread of evil, and Mairon grew desperate. He decided the only way to end evil was to get Eru involved, so he joined Melkor and became Sauron. Melkor and Sauron threatened Middle-Earth for millenia until Melkor was eventually banised to the Void, but Sauron's mission was not over.

    From then on until his destruction, Sauron promoted Melkor's corruption and did all he could to make Middle-Earth so dreadful that Eru would have no choice but to step in. Sauron, originally a pupil of Aul the Smith, created the One Ring to bring himself the strength of Melkor in order to complete his plan. At the time of the War of the Ring this plan is at the height of its completion, but Frodo ends it all for Sauron, and Sauron's cry as Barad-Dur collapses is one of sorrow knowing that Middle-Earth will be forever-doomed.


    Well, that's my belief anyway.

    And to answer the original questions: Nothing. Sauron would have to wait until Eru finally steps in and destroys all evil.

  5. #165
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    So you are saying that Sauron was.... good??

  6. #166

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Athalwulf View Post
    None of these can be answered until people understand Sauron's motives.

    During the Music of the Ainur, Melkor began seeding the song with his own chords. Many Ainu fell to Melkor's corruption, but only one Maia named Mairon (later to be known as Sauron) opposed Melkor. Eru stopped the Music and informed the Ainur that the Music would create the world, and challenged that even though it was corrupted, it would not be swayed away from his plan. Mairon grew worried as he was a lover of order and coordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction.

    When Eru created E out of the Music and allowed the spirits to enter, Mairon went forth as a force of good and order. Only when Mairon saw the true power and corruption of Melkor did he begin to change. Eru did nothing to stop Melkor's spread of evil, and Mairon grew desperate. He decided the only way to end evil was to get Eru involved, so he joined Melkor and became Sauron. Melkor and Sauron threatened Middle-Earth for millenia until Melkor was eventually banised to the Void, but Sauron's mission was not over.

    From then on until his destruction, Sauron promoted Melkor's corruption and did all he could to make Middle-Earth so dreadful that Eru would have no choice but to step in. Sauron, originally a pupil of Aul the Smith, created the One Ring to bring himself the strength of Melkor in order to complete his plan. At the time of the War of the Ring this plan is at the height of its completion, but Frodo ends it all for Sauron, and Sauron's cry as Barad-Dur collapses is one of sorrow knowing that Middle-Earth will be forever-doomed.


    Well, that's my belief anyway.

    And to answer the original questions: Nothing. Sauron would have to wait until Eru finally steps in and destroys all evil.
    intersting but i dont think thats what JRRT had in mind

  7. #167

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    As far as we know, he would have destroyed the Army of Men at the Black Gate, but when they left Gondor to Black Gate, it was said that it was still better defended than before. It would seem to me that it would take some years to rebuild his army which he lost at Pellenor - and he still has to conquer Lothlorien, Gondor, Mirkwoods, Rohan, Ents.

    And as far as attacking Valinor..

    Seriously??

    Just the mere thought of Sauron vs Tulkas, Manwe and Ulmo to name few? There is no victory for Sauron there. I believe the only way evil could in Middle-Earth is if Morgoth is somehow brought back, but I have information about that plausibility and if Sauron could somehow get to the Void to get his Master back and I do not know if Sauron even had power to get to Valinor, because as far as I know, it was inaccessible.

    But also, we all know about second prophecy where all the buds will come back and have this gigantic battle (including Morgoth), though I do not know if this can be related to the current topic.
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  8. #168

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by tugaguy View Post
    So you are saying that Sauron was.... good??
    Yes, essentially. There was no final word from Tolkien other than this from Wiki:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    "it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall...) that he loved order and coordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction." Thus, "it was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him." This shows one of the great paradoxes of Sauron: he wanted order and industry, but followed Melkor's destructive and chaotic path to obtain it.


    This is what leads me to believe what I said above. Sauron loves order but with Melkor's corruption there can be no order. Sauron was one of the first to oppose Melkor's change on the Music of the Ainur, so why would he all of a sudden dismiss his original feelings and join Melkor? There had to be a reason, and what I said above is just one possibility.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elven Warrior View Post
    intersting but i dont think thats what JRRT had in mind
    We will probably never know, but then again Tolkien didn't "complete" a lot of his ideas. Like the existence of giants, vampires and werewolves, the origins of Ents, and explaining what Tom Bombadil really is. People have speculated that Bombadil might be Eru but there's no way to know what Tolkien had planned for him, if he had anything planned at all.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    "And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)." - The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien


    Why couldn't the same apply to Sauron's true motive?

  9. #169

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    The key motivation for Sauron in the Second age going on to become the second Great Enemy was fear - Sauron at first initially repented, but feared to face Manwe, and so fell back to seeking dominion over all things, and it's important to note that one of the most consistent of all Sauron's documented emotions was fear in one form or another.

    Ultimately I think Sauron's endgame goal for seeking to take over Middle-Earth was that, at least initially he feared a second march of the Valar and sought to protect himself as much as possible. By the Third Age, however, his fears were towards the destruction of the One Ring, and his hatred was for what Men and Elves had reduced him to, and he sought vengeance above all else.

  10. #170

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Many people seem to dismiss the idea of Sauron being able to attack Valinor after he conquered Middle-Earth.

    But wasn't he able to assemble an army too great even for the strength of Valinor when he corrupted Numenor in second age and Valar had to basically pray to the God?

    I know might of Middle-Earth isn't as great as might of Numenor, but if he controled entire Middle-Earth, surely he would be able to atleast defend himself against the uttermost West until Eru interferes.

  11. #171

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Nope, it was simply Eru that was so mad at the Nmenreans he drowned them before there was any fighting that could begin; the Valar or inhabitants of Valinor never asked for it.

    Morgoth who was a Vala himself and had many Maiar at his side, among them the Balrogs, and a lot of Dragons, could not withstand the Host of the West at that time, and since then at later Ages they would been stronger due to the Noldor majority that would be under its banner; Sauron would not stood a chance.

    But he never himself had any such ideas, he just hoped, and thought, the Valar did not care for ME any longer and thus he could take it.

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  12. #172
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Athalwulf View Post
    None of these can be answered until people understand Sauron's motives.

    During the Music of the Ainur, Melkor began seeding the song with his own chords. Many Ainu fell to Melkor's corruption, but only one Maia named Mairon (later to be known as Sauron) opposed Melkor. Eru stopped the Music and informed the Ainur that the Music would create the world, and challenged that even though it was corrupted, it would not be swayed away from his plan. Mairon grew worried as he was a lover of order and coordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction.

    When Eru created E out of the Music and allowed the spirits to enter, Mairon went forth as a force of good and order. Only when Mairon saw the true power and corruption of Melkor did he begin to change. Eru did nothing to stop Melkor's spread of evil, and Mairon grew desperate. He decided the only way to end evil was to get Eru involved, so he joined Melkor and became Sauron. Melkor and Sauron threatened Middle-Earth for millenia until Melkor was eventually banised to the Void, but Sauron's mission was not over.

    From then on until his destruction, Sauron promoted Melkor's corruption and did all he could to make Middle-Earth so dreadful that Eru would have no choice but to step in. Sauron, originally a pupil of Aul the Smith, created the One Ring to bring himself the strength of Melkor in order to complete his plan. At the time of the War of the Ring this plan is at the height of its completion, but Frodo ends it all for Sauron, and Sauron's cry as Barad-Dur collapses is one of sorrow knowing that Middle-Earth will be forever-doomed.


    Well, that's my belief anyway.

    And to answer the original questions: Nothing. Sauron would have to wait until Eru finally steps in and destroys all evil.

    I really like this! Feels like a plot twist that would explain the barbarism/cynicism of Sauron's actions, the whole focus on the war against HIM and would actually make it so ambiguously cool as to his actual 'Goodness'. So if i get you right, he wanted ultimate order, but with Melkor bringing chaos he choose to join him and anger the higher ups into just completely removing chaos from the world?

    Some thoughts, did Sauron really hate Elves? Maybe its a reverse psychology thing? Many ppl joked that he was a sadomasochist with his lord and stuff, but what if he butchered them to provoke them, speeding the process to destroy chaos, and to push them in radicalism? (radicalism to be defined, but i guess he would have wanted to push the elves into more order) So them MAN would be his main gripe with this world, as men were gifted with free thinking and such, so Men ARE chaos. Men are like Orcs! Anarchic by nature, spreading like wildfire, bending the order of nature for them and ravaging lands to reap its wealth (Dwarves too but to a lesser degree, so they would be secondary targets) Then HE would have plotted to sink the continent(s) humans lived on, by attracting the attention of the higher ups, to destroy THEM! Also would coincide with the whole 'Elves leaving ME' thing, to live on their lands made up of magic and harmony (order literally).

    BUT theres another question with that theory. In the original nihilist plan of Melkor, to destroy all and everything, wouldnt that be total uniformity? Wouldnt Null be order at its greatest?

    (lol i got caried away in conjectures and unfathomable questions)

  13. #173

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    I suggest you get lay your hands on History of Middle-Earth 10 and read Myths Transformed there in, that look quite a lot into the intentions of both Morgoth and Sauron, next to Unfinished Tales info' and that from Silmarillion's Of The Rings of Power and the Third Age, and you end up with Tolkien presenting you with a much less appealing picture than this.
    No stage where Sauron actually appear in history he has any forgiving traits (there may be argued that after the 1st Age he had redeeming qualities due to one entry, but those are rejected by many other sources from JRR Tolkien).
    I should add I would loved such a situation, the only good part of Star Wars Epsiode II IMHO was when I belived count Doku was really good but stopped by the fooled jedis, but just as Doku was not a good fellow hindred by good jedis Sauron was not in any way a good fellow hindered by fooled Elves & Men.
    Perhaps more than his master* Sauron was inclined to be a dictator simply based on his will to dominate and rule alone, and nothing else.

    * As noted above I argue the nihilistic side of Morgoth was abandoned least after the theft of the Silamril, meaning even the dictator side of Sauron is only in the manner of Morgoth, while perhap nurtured before Morgoth's sprang to life;
    I say MT; VII; (iii) tell us Morgoth had "fallen into even more petty desires" [Edit: my colours and underlining; Tolkien's italic]
    Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been weakened: in power and prestige (he had lost and failed to recover one of the Silmarils), and above all in mind.
    He had become absorbed in 'kingship', and though a tyrant of ogre-size and monstrous power, this was a vast fall even from his former wickedness of hate, and his terrible nihilism.
    He had fallen to like being a tyrant-king with conquered slaves, and vast obedient armies.
    This weakness in appriciation of 'kingship' do not appear in VII; (i) where the nihilistic side is brought up, and I deem that it, as Tolkien in this quote put's it, overcome even his nihilistic Destruction urges in favour of another urge - the one of a Ruler.

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  14. #174

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by jrhindo View Post
    I really like this! Feels like a plot twist that would explain the barbarism/cynicism of Sauron's actions, the whole focus on the war against HIM and would actually make it so ambiguously cool as to his actual 'Goodness'. So if i get you right, he wanted ultimate order, but with Melkor bringing chaos he choose to join him and anger the higher ups into just completely removing chaos from the world?

    Some thoughts, did Sauron really hate Elves? Maybe its a reverse psychology thing? Many ppl joked that he was a sadomasochist with his lord and stuff, but what if he butchered them to provoke them, speeding the process to destroy chaos, and to push them in radicalism? (radicalism to be defined, but i guess he would have wanted to push the elves into more order) So them MAN would be his main gripe with this world, as men were gifted with free thinking and such, so Men ARE chaos. Men are like Orcs! Anarchic by nature, spreading like wildfire, bending the order of nature for them and ravaging lands to reap its wealth (Dwarves too but to a lesser degree, so they would be secondary targets) Then HE would have plotted to sink the continent(s) humans lived on, by attracting the attention of the higher ups, to destroy THEM! Also would coincide with the whole 'Elves leaving ME' thing, to live on their lands made up of magic and harmony (order literally).

    BUT theres another question with that theory. In the original nihilist plan of Melkor, to destroy all and everything, wouldnt that be total uniformity? Wouldnt Null be order at its greatest?

    (lol i got caried away in conjectures and unfathomable questions)
    Yep, that's exactly what I mean. It seemed odd to me that Mairon the Admirable (Sauron) was clearly stated as defying Melkor's initial corruption of the Music of the Ainur only for him to join Melkor in the end. I'd like to think that there was some kind of motivation for that, either that Sauron hoped that he could make the world so chaotic that Eru would step in and destroy Melkor's corruption or that Sauron could achieve ultimate order by erasing all opposition to Melkor's servants.

    @Ngugi: I never said Sauron was forgiving at all. It's stated clearly that he hates anyone who attacks him or Melkor's forces.

    It's also stated that Sauron hate Elves and Men which seems to support my theory of Sauron wanting Eru to step in. If he brought Elves and Men to near annihilation, couldn't Eru possibly step in to prevent their destruction as his favorite creations and possibly remove all of Melkor's influence at the same time? Perhaps that's exactly what Sauron was hoping for.

    Sauron began as a servant of Aule and it isn't mentioned that he outright hates Dwarves unless they provoke him, and as far as I know they only ever provide supporting forces to a main attack against Sauron.

    Obviously it's near impossible to prove (or disprove, I'd like to think) my theory since we can't get an official word from Tolkien, but even if Tolkien didn't plan this it would make a lot of sense based on how Mairon acted towards Melkor's corruption in the beginning. Sauron loves order, Melkor brings chaos, and to bring order Sauron must either provoke Eru into destroying all corruption or Sauron must eradicate all opposition to Melkor, therefore bringing order. It's a very sad outcome for Sauron, he either sacrifices himself to bring the world back to Eru's original vision, or he destroys what he originally loved to bring order.

  15. #175

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Thrown loud parties with loud, live jazz music every night until eternity!

  16. #176
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Matttb wrote
    To be honest, I just find it difficult to imagine what orcs would do if they had nobody to fight! Orcs are bred for war and battles, for pillaging and slaughter - what would they do if they had no enemies to speak of? Would they begin to contruct their own culture and commerce?
    There's a part of the Lord of the Rings where either Frodo or Sam is thinking about this while listening to the orcs Gorbag and Shagrat and their subordinates squabbling and starting to kill each other and it says Frodo or Sam realised that if orcs didn't have anyone else left to fight they would probably fight among themselves.

    The fighting between Ugluk's Uruks and Grishnakhs orcs earlier in the book, even while they're being surrounded by Rohirrim, suggests the same (though there there was the additional reason that Ugluk was loyal to Saruman and Grishnakh to Sauron)

    Thrown loud parties with loud, live jazz music every night until eternity!
    Jazz music? Even orcs aren't that evil

  17. #177
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    It is implied that Sauron wanted order, and would even join with evil to create that order, but by the time of the War of the Ring any semblence of that idea had long since vanished. By the Third Age, there can be no doubt that Sauron had gone completely and utterly insane. Still cunning and clever, but I think losing the Ring frove him to breaking point furing the Third Age.

    I think he would've razed everything after he conquered Middle Earth. He would simply tread the same dark path as Melkor, he would burn the forests, likely turn on his human allies. H ewould destroy absolutely everything in Middle Earth, until the orcs fought each other and his empire collapsed. Then he would've become a spirit in the dark, spent and mad.

  18. #178

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    A more interesting question would be: what would be of the world today if Sauron had prevailed or if Frodo did not destroy The Ring?


  19. #179

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Once he owned everything, Sauron would get bored of the game and go play Civilization 4 where he would face an even more evil enemy: Gandhi with nukes.

  20. #180
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Easy: everything would be under Sauron's dominion, Elves are dead, remaining Dwarves are hiding in the mountains and all Men are under his will. Also every corner in ME would become Mordor.
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