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Thread: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

  1. #141
    Mikail Mengsk's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Melkor has disperded his powers greatly from the good old days when he could shape the Earth with his will. I strongly doubt he can make half of the continent emerge from the seas, and why should he? He can simply build a new fortress or expand Barad-D¨r.

    I don't disagree that they'd certainly see him as a big threat, but I doubt they'd just instantly send in the cavalry due to the fact that he might not want to attack the Valar after the conclusion to the War of Wrath.
    Melkor alive means war. He's the only being that could effectively challenge the Valar, so they will never let him root again in the world. Melkor for sure would like to rest and concentrate his and Sauron's powers before the final battle, but the Valar will come earlier. They know the prophecy.


    Because he is a Melkor worshipper and always has been, bringing back Melkor would make his place in Ea absolute and once again, Melkor was very smart, after having it handed to him the first time around do you really think he'd be dumb-**** evil enough to try again.
    Bringing back Melkor will threaten his own empire. He surely remember how the Valar crushed Melkor when he was at full strenght. Sauron can conquer the Middle Earth (and even defeating the west, i strongly doubt East and South will always support him) but he will never have balrogs and dragons by his side. And who knows how much Valinor has grown in strenght in all these years? So he will risk everything for what? Just the chance to see his old master again and kneel to him one more time before the inevitable defeat? I think Sauron is smarter than that.

    The same way he made the Rings and destroyed the Numenoreans, he is the Deceiver for a reason.
    You are dramatically forgetting a few things:

    - Numenoreans were just men.

    - After the fall of Numenor, Sauron can't take any form that isn't monstruous

    - Valar are thousands times more powerful than him, in every way. No way a maia can "influence" a Vala like Sauron did with the Numenoreans. Absolutely no way.
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  2. #142
    FC Groningen's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Didn't Sauron at least get captured once by the Valar and managed to plead himself free?

  3. #143
    Ngugi's Avatar eucatastrophe
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    No, that was Melkor/Morgoth (more or less, since he first was a prisoner for three Ages)
    Sauron meet with the Host of the Valar at the end of the First Age or beginning of the Second but then hid as he did not want to go to Aman and be judged

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  4. #144
    Mikail Mengsk's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    He was captured and tried to convince the vitors to be released, but they wanted him to go to Aman and face judgement, so he fled. And that was when he could still use his powers to appear "good". We don't know how sincere he was. I think he was just faking.
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  5. #145

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mattttb View Post
    This has always had me vexed. In literature and movies, the forces of "evil" are not often given strong motives for their malice or their world-conquering ways, or it isn't made clear what a certain villain would achieve if his plans had succeeded - and this would appear to me (as someone who has only read the Hobbit, and the LOTR trilogy) to be the case for Sauron and his orc armies. However I don't really want to discuss the motives of Sauron - I'm more interested in what he would've done with Middle Earth had he conquered it.

    Below is a version of events that I believe could easily have occurred, had things been a little different...

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Sam didn't manage to rescue Frodo from Cirith Ungol, he then gets captured/killed and the ring is taken from him. Sauron, having control of the ring, regains his earthly form and leads his armies across Middle Earth, kicking some serious butt. The remaining fellowship members who had gathered at the Black Gate are wiped out, (including Aragorn and Gandalf) along with the armies of the Men of the West, who are slaughtered to the last man. Sauron strikes across the Anduin through the ruins of Osgiliath and finishes sacking Minas Tirith (which is left defenceless), slaughtering and enslaving all who remain there. The armies of Sauron continue their rampage across the lands of Men, leaving Gondor and Rohan in flames, while goblins and mountain orcs pour from the Misty Mountains, overwhelming Rivendell. Dol Guldur unleashes its armies on the Elves of Mirkwood, driving them west towards Lindon where they sail to the Undying Lands with the remaining Elves of Middle Earth. The dwarves are swarmed with goblins, and eventually fall after years of sieges. Sauron turns his attention to Eriador and swiftly crushes the last remaining resistance of the "Good" peoples of Middle Earth. The Men of the West are exterminated or enslaved, and Sauron rules unopposed.

    tl;dr version:
    Sauron conquers all of Middle Earth, the Elves are hunted down and sail west, the men of the West are exterminated/enslaved, the dwarves are over run by goblins and are wiped out.

    1. What does Sauron do next?

    2. What happens to his armies of orcs?

    3. Having conquered all of Middle Earth, what will Sauron do with its lands?

    I have my own ideas, but I'd like to hear the ideas of you fellow forum-goers

    Quote Originally Posted by Incomitatus View Post
    Sauron's motivation is to turn Middle Earth into a fortress while finding a way to release his master, Melkor. The elves would be driven out, men enslaved. The dwarves would retreat into their mighty fortresses or fall into darkness as they did before. In the end, the Valar would probably intervene, eventually.

    Sauron's motivations are much more clear, albeit only implicit, if you read The Silmarillion.
    Probably what @Incomitatus said, I can imagine. That is, with the exception of the direct intervention of the Valar. I say this because one:
    Manwe does not talk to mortal Men. - The Unfinished Tales
    and two:
    Manwe will not descend from the Mountain until Melkor returns at Dagor Dagoroth. - The Unfinished Tales
    I think intervention from Illuvatar would be more plausible in the since that
    Eru will not surrender his creation to another. - Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth; Morgoth's Ring
    and again
    There are those who say that Eru will come into the world and heal it. - Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth; Morgoth's Ring
    Hope this helps.

  6. #146
    Incomitatus's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnistar View Post
    Probably what @Incomitatus said, I can imagine.
    Wow, I said that a long time ago. But yes, I think you're right about the Valar not intervening, as Manwe had surrendered the governance of the world back to Eru when Ar-Pharazon landed on Aman. I had overlooked that.

    Although it's worth reading this section of an essay by Tolkien himself, which seems to suggest that Sauron had no need or desire to free Melkor, and just used his name as a fake god for people to worship, aggrandizing himself as high priest.

    I think my new position is: he was crazy (though not as chaotically nihilistic as Melkor) and trying to predict what a crazy person/entity/thing will do is a good way to become one yourself!
    Last edited by Incomitatus; October 11, 2012 at 10:07 PM.
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  7. #147

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    I refuse to believe that Sauron's motivation is to free Melkor , that's just ridiculous . A being/person like Sauron can't be that dumb and unambitious .
    This is a good point :
    Bringing back Melkor will threaten his own empire. He surely remember how the Valar crushed Melkor when he was at full strenght. Sauron can conquer the Middle Earth (and even defeating the west, i strongly doubt East and South will always support him) but he will never have balrogs and dragons by his side. And who knows how much Valinor has grown in strenght in all these years? So he will risk everything for what? Just the chance to see his old master again and kneel to him one more time before the inevitable defeat? I think Sauron is smarter than that.
    Last edited by The Despondent Mind; October 11, 2012 at 10:33 PM.

  8. #148
    SuljicDamir's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    you dident read a book ?? Valar will never comm back to ME again you remember the last battle .And Melkor isnt capture in Valaria

  9. #149

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    i havent read the other posts, only 1st page, but i know for a fact that sauron wasnt really "evil" (as if evil really existed yeah right) per se, he was just striving to become a god to man as well as shape middle earth to his own image of perfection.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean=A=Luc View Post
    What the hell is wrong with you people?

  10. #150
    Ngugi's Avatar eucatastrophe
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Yes, and so did Hitler.
    He knew exactly how to create an Utopia. He just needed to kill off as many as objected or did not fit as possible and to be the megalomaniac dictator over all to reach that merry end.
    As did Lenin, Idi Amin or Pol Pot etc etc. We all know they for a fact was not really "evil".

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  11. #151
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Personally I think he will most likely be stumped and confused if he managed to conquer the world. It's the same thing when youre going to the supermarket, and by the time you get there, you have forgotten what it was you wanted to buy in the first place.
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  12. #152

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Valinor is impossible to reach even for Sauron with the ring

    Its will be unreachable lands forever

    What will Sauron do if he success conquered middle-earth is the same question to what if British success to conquered the world, Khan success conquered all Europe and Asia, Alexander conquered entire world.

    There no answer because no one or even demi-god like Sauron can do before, eventually Valinor will come to crush Sauron again if Middle-earth is seriously collapse.
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  13. #153

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    Yes, and so did Hitler.
    He knew exactly how to create an Utopia. He just needed to kill off as many as objected or did not fit as possible and to be the megalomaniac dictator over all to reach that merry end.
    As did Lenin, Idi Amin or Pol Pot etc etc. We all know they for a fact was not really "evil".
    was hitler evil? define evil then
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean=A=Luc View Post
    What the hell is wrong with you people?

  14. #154
    Mikail Mengsk's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    dolan plis
    It's only after you have lost everything, that you are free to do anything.

  15. #155
    Ngugi's Avatar eucatastrophe
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    I have a very nihilistic perception on moral, meaning I do not belive good and evil as an objective truth. It may neither be defined by will nor action nor consequence alone but a combination of all three.
    I further accept some cultural and logical philospohical perspectives on evil, mainly based in willingly neglection in the threatment of other human beings, the threatment of their generally accepted 'human rights' and compassion.
    On his concious responsibility are ca 21 million civilian lives and further ca 29 million soldier lives in his European war (ca 40 million dead all in all).
    So let me instead turn the question and ask on what grounds his combined intentions and his actions and consequences of those should not be deemed evil, and I'll be glad to give you a better formulated reply.

    However not here, but in the Mudpit where such a single off topic question should be debated: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=19

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  16. #156
    Paladin94610's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    What happen next??
    After a hard won victory, Sauron summoned the leaders of Rhun and Harad to his fortress of Barad-Dur and welcome them with a poisonous breakfast and corrupt the just like the Nine. Then he can weaken Rhun and Harad politically. Then wipe them out just as Saruman tried with Rohan.
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  17. #157
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    The majority of them already belived he was a god and worshipped him.

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  18. #158
    Alkarin's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Do you think after he takes over all of ME he would kill off the evil men? Or let them be? Since they have been his faithful servants for quite some time.
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  19. #159
    FC Groningen's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    I believe Gandalf hinted on occasion that both Saruman and Sauron planned to either enslave (as far as that didn't happen yet) or kill their human servants in case they would have won. In Saruman's case, I believe it was after the Dunlendings surrendered and were spared by the Rohirrim.

  20. #160
    Flinn's Avatar In Dude We Trust!
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    The majority of them already belived he was a god and worshipped him.
    Correct.

    I don't think the final goal of Morgoth (and similarly for Sauron his servant) was to destroy everything, but to rule Arda or ME at least in the way he preferred, shaping it according to his own tastes. It might be that Sauron was more "mad destroyer" than his master, still I'm convinced that the final goal was to rule everything and everybody and be considered as a God.

    Now that I'm thinking about this matter I have to admit it is quite complicate, we should also take into account what the Valar would have done if in the end Sauron had won the war for the complete dominion of ME (probably what they did with Morgoth when he was actually ruling ME at the time the Elves awoke, because the final goal for all the troubles of Valar was to create and maintain a world for the Sons of Illuvatar) or if Sauron had really tried again to do anything against Valinor (provided that he could find a way to somehow reach or affect it). Furthermore I honestly and personally doubt Sauron ever had a real chance to completely overrun his enemies, in the sense that at the very last the Valar never refused their help to preserve the Sons, nor they were completely inactive, as they sent Istari to contest his power, and in the end it was one of them who actually won over him (also consider that there are many references in the books to the fact that in some extention the Valar, Manwe in particular, had not forgotten ME, ie sending his belowed Eagle two times to help Gandalf.. or when Gandalf himself said to Frodo that he was somewhat "doomed" to find the Ring).

    I might be a little OT, but I think it is difficult, if not impossible, to make any speculation on a fiction character if we do not take into consideration who is him in the fiction itself.

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