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Thread: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

  1. #101
    MDT's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Aktually the Valar have their own Maiar armies (Sauron, Gandalf, Balrogs are also Maiar).
    Its just that most elves live in Valinor and go to war together with the Ainur (Maiar+Valar) as they have the same enemys and understanding of evil, but it only happende once since the elves live there.

    But they are quite reluctant at waging wars as they are so powerfull that their intervention literally shapes the world new (their last war sunk the entire region the first Age took place in, into the ocean) and thus has consequences they can't foresee themselves.

    Also as I understood the Valar gave up their dominion over Arda in exchange when Aman (the continent(?) where Valinor lies) was removed from the world and Numenor sunk, both done by Eru, or elvisch Ilúvatar (God), and will only return once more (at the apocalypse) to fight the fallen Valar Morgoth, Saurons master, when he returns to Arda (Earth).

    Edit: Also I'm quite sure that Orcs and Goblins are ment to be the same in Tolkiens universe.

    Edit2: Valar (perhaps with the exception of Morgoth) don't see themselves as Gods (they are perhaps more like Angels with demigod powers?). They are the Powers of Arda. Eru is the God, the only one who can truely create new life, and they have met him and tell about him. But as only at the beginning of the First Age someone (the Noldor) actually left Valinor to live in Middle Earth and so many of them died fighting Morgoth this knowledge isn't wide spread in ME and the "lesser" human people see them as Gods (simmilar to the Nordic or Greek Gods) as they can't know better.
    Last edited by MDT; September 28, 2011 at 09:04 AM.

  2. #102
    Hengest's Avatar It's a joke
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Sauron has a gay crush on Melkor and wants him back. Once he IS back, it's a kind of Saddam/Hitler relationship like in South Park


  3. #103

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    It seems that the people of Middle-Earth will exist under a dictatorship no matter what the outcome of the War of the Ring. They'll have a malevolent dictatorship under a god-king Sauron (ultimately, Melkor, if the First Dark Lord can return) or a (possibly) benevolent and metaphysical dictatorship under Eru. In the former case, it is a case of toiling under a tyrant in a hellish environment. In the latter case, the Valar act as governers of Arda, but this situation remains until a human dies (in the case of the Elves, until the world ends). After death, Eru can do whatever he wants with his pet humans and elves (we can only speculate).

    Either way, people can never ultimately be masters of their own destiny. Not even the "escape" of death alters a person's fate as a subject to an unchallengeable ruler. This nod to monotheism is, for me, the only thing that taints Tolkien's beautiful mythology, aesthetically. But that's just me
    Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca the Younger (ca. 4 BC - 65 AD)

  4. #104

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Isn't it like Humans with their 'Gift of Iluvatar', die? A true death I mean. With no heaven, hell or anything in between?
    Or was it that they could choose their further journey?

    Allso regarding Valar not thinking of themselves as of gods. A term of "god" is overlly tainted by biblical entity Jahwe in our culture. A 'god' is not an 'ultimate' being. Look at greek mythology. They have gods who are as human as any of us, except way more powerfull.
    Allso, there is no monotheism. There is no such thing, on Arda or earth.
    We have entire set of gods in Arda and in every religion on earth, with the foremost being christianity.

  5. #105
    TheRomanRuler's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Men would fight to the last man, dwarwes would fight to the last dwar, elves would fight to the last elve and so long..
    Something unclear?

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  6. #106
    MDT's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Liamar View Post
    Isn't it like Humans with their 'Gift of Iluvatar', die? A true death I mean. With no heaven, hell or anything in between?
    Or was it that they could choose their further journey?
    Yes, their gift is to die and not to be bound to Arda until its end like elves, but Tolkien strongly suggest an afterlife he just says it's unnown how it exactly looks like. But as Bere returned from death there must be something to return from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liamar View Post
    Allso regarding Valar not thinking of themselves as of gods. A term of "god" is overlly tainted by biblical entity Jahwe in our culture. A 'god' is not an 'ultimate' being. Look at greek mythology. They have gods who are as human as any of us, except way more powerfull.
    Allso, there is no monotheism. There is no such thing, on Arda or earth.
    We have entire set of gods in Arda and in every religion on earth, with the foremost being christianity.
    Maybe, but the fact remeins that they believe in a God themselves (Eru) of whom they know that his definitly much more powerful then they are so they don't call themselves Gods.

    I have already stated that Valar very much resemble Greek Gods and that humans (both from Arda and from Earth )often see them as Gods. I just wanted to make clear, that they would never use that term themselves.

  7. #107

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    If I remember correctly in LOTR the book when frodo arrives in Mordor something is mentioned about farms far to the west run by slaves to feed the men of saurons armies and if like Melkor he would abandon the Southrons/Haradrim like Melkor did to the easterlings in I think it was (Edit: Belareand) pls correct if I am wrong. So I think that the orcs would have been aloud to roam free torturing the civilians of middle earth. If by some miracle and I honestly don't believe it possible even with the one ring that he would be able to recall melkor from beyond space I think Illuvatar would have just broken the world and given it back to the Valar. Secondly I don't think that Sauron would even want the return of Melkor as its rightly put by Gandalf that the dark lord does not share power.... and that goes for Melkor aswell as sauron. I agree with what someone else said though that he would turtle and wait for the Valar intervention..... He only sent the numenoreans after Valinor to bring doom upon them and disgrace his only real threat from mortal men left in middle earth. And if not for last alliance of the other races men would have perished under slavery before the third age was out of nappies. This only my opinion of course
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  8. #108
    young_dude's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mattttb View Post

    3. Having conquered all of Middle Earth, what will Sauron do with its lands?
    This.

  9. #109

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by young_dude View Post
    Nice, Real nice.

  10. #110

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    young_dude that example you gave was truely terrifying

    Forgive me if I'm somewhat making an controversial statement here but this is one of the things I really disliked about the whole tolkien world, ecspecially in the lord of the rings, Sauron doesn't stand a chance.

    Ok lets just say he recaptured the one ring and with his massive armies he was able to destroy all the Edain and Eldar lands in Middle-earth.
    What then?
    Who knows, but it really doesn't matter because with all resistance agaisnt Sauron defeated the Valar just like in the first age whuld have no choice but to intervene and if they were able to defeat Melkor in the first age they could certainly get rid of Sauron no problem.
    This is what really spoils it for me, Evil never really has a chance to win the good guys are just to strong, so in a way it kind of takes the Possibility that the good guys would ever suffer a ultimate defeat.

    “It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.”
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  11. #111

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Sauron is like the underpants gnomes of southpark

    build army-> crush free peoples-> ???? -> profit

  12. #112
    Hengest's Avatar It's a joke
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Aragorn kind of sets up his own dictatorship anyway. Gets 'all the other' free kings -all two of them, Rohan and Dale- to accept him, quarantines the Druedain and Hobbits, invades the Middle East and runs down all the arabs, -sorry easterlings- with the Rohirrim panzer cavalry. Liberates the human servants of Sauron and rewards them with allowing them to live in Mordor (mmm nice thanks for that) and allows them to cultivate the land, which is made of ash, and is actually what they did under Sauron anyway. On top of that he isn't actually descended from the kings of Gondor, but we don't talk about that. Bit like Bush and the whole Florida thing.


  13. #113
    Ciloron's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by karahan View Post
    young_dude that example you gave was truely terrifying

    Forgive me if I'm somewhat making an controversial statement here but this is one of the things I really disliked about the whole tolkien world, ecspecially in the lord of the rings, Sauron doesn't stand a chance.

    Ok lets just say he recaptured the one ring and with his massive armies he was able to destroy all the Edain and Eldar lands in Middle-earth.
    What then?
    Who knows, but it really doesn't matter because with all resistance agaisnt Sauron defeated the Valar just like in the first age whuld have no choice but to intervene and if they were able to defeat Melkor in the first age they could certainly get rid of Sauron no problem.
    This is what really spoils it for me, Evil never really has a chance to win the good guys are just to strong, so in a way it kind of takes the Possibility that the good guys would ever suffer a ultimate defeat.
    He was powerfull enough, but he became paranoia and used some of his powers to make useless orcs. That weakened Morgoth.

  14. #114
    MDT's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    I'm not so sure the Valar would have attacked Sauron if he conwuered Middle Earth. They knew from the beginning that the Noldor had no chance to overcome Morgoth and even said so to them, but they still waited for Earendil to beg for help before they acted.
    They learned that their interventions ended with disasters, the flight of the Noldor and the Kinslaying in the First Age and the downfall of Numenor in the Second.

    They would perhaps send more Istari to raise revolutions or hide some faithful but not attack Sauron directly unless Morgoth is brought back.

  15. #115

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    This is a good writer i found and i liked his story immensly

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=309601
    "The when Fingon heard afar the great trumpet of Turgon his brother, the shadow passed and his heart was uplifted, and he shouted aloud: "Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered crying: "Auta i lómë! The night is passing!"" (Silmarillion, Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad

    Fingon, High king of the Noldor

  16. #116
    Kabeloko's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Lor'themar the Great View Post
    Haha XD , Mental picture of the death star with the eye of sauron
    Great addition! thats where the laser will be shoot from! +rep!

  17. #117
    Mhaedros's Avatar Brave Heart Tegan
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Is it really that interesting if someone necroes a thread? Really, you people must find something else to look at. Deleted four posts
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  18. #118

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    hmm.. Is there a rule against it? if some one wasnt around when thread was made why is it forbidden to talk about it? isnt that a little harsh?

  19. #119
    Jack Harper's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    True, this is a very interesting topic, we should bring it back to life.

  20. #120
    Ngugi's Avatar Circle of Zerthimon
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    The issue is not that it's brought back per see, but that if it should be brought back from the grave then perhaps someone should actually talk about it and just not post 'what an interesting thread this is', or it could just have stayed dead

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