He'd make it into a place of order, and darkness.
But alas, we can only speculate. Unless Tolkien himself comes back we'll never truly know.
Foederatus
Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?
He'd make it into a place of order, and darkness.
But alas, we can only speculate. Unless Tolkien himself comes back we'll never truly know.
Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?
Originally Posted by Tar-Falassion
I have to disagree with some of the things you stated, orclover
It might be considered to be a minor thing, but Galadriel was never "left in Middle-Earth". In fact, after the end of the War of Wrath she was offered the same choice that her people was : to return to the Undying Lands. She refused, however, because of her pride, as she still wanted to live and rule among the Free Peoples of Middle-Earth. But the offer was never taken back, and since she was a Firstborn, she could have sailed to Aman any time she wanted. And if you think about it, most, if not every Noldor, had the potential to become another Feänor, as they had the same fire burning inside of them, and the same destructive hatred for evil. Yet every Noldor was given the choice to come back to Valinor. It is not our abilities that show what we truly are, it is our choices (ok, I pulled a Dumbledore on this one)
That one makes me wonder if you actually read the Lord of the Rings, since Aragorn is nothing like what you said - in the Fellowship he is well past 80 years old, and unlike in the movie he strongly intents to reclaim his rightful heritage, and has prepared during his whole life -more than 60 years - for the day he would at last sit on the Throne of Gondor (especially since becoming King of Gondor was Elrond's prerequisite for marrying his daughter). Unlike in the movie trilogy, he doesn't have any doubts about his legitimacy, and often reminds his companions that he is the Heir of Isildur and his claims should not be taken lightly (such as when he gazed in the Palantir, he stated that the Orthanc Stone was him by right).
The same might be said of Gandalf, who in the movies is depicted as an always worried and troubled wizard, under tremendous stress, while in the books he is much calmer, always trusting in fate and never shows as much emotions as Ian McKellen does. He is confident in his own power, and knows that his role is to guide the Free Peoples to victory.
At last, in the movies Frodo is much more doubtful than in the books - his will waver so many times when you compare it to the book's version, that it is truly a wonder that he managed to actually travel all the way to Mount Doom - while the books never depict him crumbling under the Ring's influence such as when the movies show him at Weathertop when facing the Witch-King, in Henneth Annûn under Faramir's threats, or in the Winding Stairs of Cirith Ungol. Only after entering Mordor proper does the Ring pulls actual doubts in Frodo's mind.
And I doubt that characters such as Hobbits, who seem to have forgotten everything of Eru and the Valar, or the Rohirrim who turned to the veneration of their ancestors, knew of Eru and some of the Valar but did not worship them, would ever "hope that a greater good is pulling for them". The Rohirrim are the representation of men who believed in nothing but their own strength, and hobbits are an unknown part of this, since we don't really know in what they believe (except their family trees)
That part would be especially tricky, since Eru has removed the whole Continent of Aman from the Circles of the World during the destruction of Nùmenor, and after that only Elves could ever sail upon the Straight Road to reach the Undying Lands.
And even if there was a physical mean to reach them, I highly doubt that Sauron would risk to provoke the wrath of the Valar and Eru AGAIN. During the Second Age, Sauron has come to believe that the Valar had forsaken Middle-Earth, and he has forgotten their true power. So when Sauron had Ar-Pharazôn lead a Numenorean invasion of Aman, he intended to have the Numenoreans destroyed, but he truly was terrified by the calamity that the Valar unleashed on the Blessed Island and Middle-Earth - especially since it caused his body to be unmade, as well as his ability to assume a fair shape (and we might supposed that many other powers were taken from him during the Akallabêth).
Therefore I think that if Sauron has learned anything from this, it is that even with the Ring at his finger again, he cannot oppose the will of Manwë.
Sauron is absolutely nothing like the Witch-King for a very good reason : he still has his free will. Sauron is a fallen Maia, exactly like Balrogs, and they CHOSE to follow Melkor in the age of the Lamps. During the Wars of the Jewels in the First Age, Sauron showed a lot of independance from Morgoth's will, as he did not return to his master after his defeat to Huan at Tol-in-Gaurhoth, and since he did not take part in the War of Wrath.
On the other hands, the Witch-King, like his fellow Nazgûl, is a mere human, and his soul and will were bound entirely to Sauron's by his possession of his Ring of Power, and in the end the Nine didn't even have a sense of individuality or free will
left.
Plus, even for the slightest moment, Sauron showed some sign of repentance after the fall of Angband, as he bowed to Eonwë and asked for forgiveness - even though he still was too much afraid from the justice of the Valar to follow Eonwë back to Valinor, and fell back to the Shadow. This is a huge proof that he still has his entire will and independance.
Furthermore, even though Sauron was servant to Morgoth, in the following Ages he was perfectly happy to substitute himself to Morgoth in the Shadow Cults that emerged millenia later in Middle-Earth, and ended up erecting cults to himself, and no longer to Melkor (in the Third Age, older Melkoric cults were even turned down by Sauronic fanatics). So after spending so many centuries as the One Dark Lord, I don't think Sauron would give the Dark Throne back to a being uncapable of returning to claim it. That Sauron's will was not tied to Morgoth's the way that the Nazgûl's were to Sauron's, and the subsequent independance, is the reason why Sauron is still capable of AMBITION. Sauron has no reason to defy the Valar to release his old Master from the Door of Night, he IS the Dark Lord and he wants it to stay this way.
You misunderstood what I was trying to say : I did not think that Sauron is not evil, indeed I'd be the first one to praise his talents of deception and seduction. I was explaining his downfall to Darkness, which is very different from Morgoth's because of their motivations. And that is what makes Sauron truly a lesser evil than Morgoth : Sauron advocates peace through tyranny, absolute order through absolute submission to his power - evil notions indeed, but which still aspire to peace and order. Morgoth aspires to nothing but destruction, he advocates death to all that is not his, he desires twisting and unmaking of all the creations of his "brothers and sisters". He is a nihilist who relishes in suffering and chaos, while Sauron's subconscient motivation, even if he forgot it, is to bring back order to Middle-Earth.
So in the end, I will only say this :
...
What is wrong with your boldwriting lock, man ?
1. On aragorn: You have to remember many chieftains came before Aragorn, they were of similar lineage, but most fell before they even hit old age, even though they were housed in Rivendell at times and were heirs as well. My point had little to do with his doubt, although he expresses many times that his future is dark to him and he states often that he may or may not make it to Gondor...my point had more to do with his lack of ambition...do you forget his threat to take the ring in Bree...he turned down power there, something that many stewards and kings of Gondor would have failed to do....he also turned down power when he returned from victory at Umbar when he went to battle as Thorongil. He was to return to much favor from Ecthelion II, and could have most likely worked his way to power in Gondor much earlier, but with much more strife as Denethor was already "aware" of his possible lineage. You have to treat tolkien lore via themes because he is inconsistent often, he no doubt employed the idea that those who have power thrust on them are more successful than those who grab for it..the movies used this theme as well in the form of weakness and doubt which is the consequence of not being constantly ambitious and sure of your future success.
2. On Sauron...Morgoth is a holy one, Ainur, Sauron is his subordinate, and would answer to him ALWAYS, that makes him a slave and morgoth a master. In the books the ringwraiths are portayed as wholly slaves, but in the unfinished tale, "The Hunt for the Ring"...Sauron treats them with anger and wrath, and seems to have to "keep and eye" on them as they move through middle earth. They show fear of Sauron, and this seems to show their own thought, and decision making, which could be swayed towards their own power if Sauron ever released them. The witch king also ran his own kingdom, weaker than Saurons but still autonomous, and has his own power as a necromancer
3. Galadriel: Tolkien was inconsistent in his treatment of galadriel...he continually changed her story so she could end up being a hero at the end. Tolkien wrote that she was banished from returning west after morgoth was defeated because she was a main player in the rebellion, and then tolkien wrote that she refused to return. Finally it is mentioned multiple times that she was allowed to travel west because of her resistance to the ring and her fight against Sauron, hence the term "I have passed the test" . Galadriel went from a character of immense pride and as desirous of rule as any, to a character that had accepted her place as just a servant to the Valar. Tolkien was still writing up to a month before his death, and likely would have cleaned up these holes but alas we are left with literally unfinished tales to back up what we consider lore. And I like bold.
4. If a second darkness had come eventually Sauron would have attempted to gain full power of at least Eressea...whether he could succeed or not does not matter as he would be driven mad by the fact that the elves and Valar were existing in peace while each year his control of middle earth became less satisfying. It is an interesting idea...you should read the prologue that Tolken wrote concerning the future after the events in LOTR...Eldarion was long dead and Gondor had had peace for many years but now the men had become complacent and even children began to play as orcs and trolls...strife was rising in the south...I think the book is only like 14 pages long but is still very revealing to how Tolkien saw the future of a ME without Elves.
Last edited by orclover5; June 28, 2015 at 10:01 PM.
Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?
Little off topic: What would Saruman do, if he found The One Ring? I think he was powerfull enaught to defeat Sauron, but what he'd do next, what was his intensions?
Campidoctor
Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?
He may have been powerful enough to have defeated Sauron with the use of the ring when he was still good but definitely by the time of the War of the Ring, he's too far corrupted by Sauron to effectively concentrate his power. He would need to destroy him by either sacrificing the ring or a lot of his power in a similar way that Gandalf did with Durin's Bane.
In the most likely case that he overcomes Sauron but is persuaded not to destroy him, there would be a mirror of what happened at Numenor. Sauron would slowly grow in power, corrupt him further and provoke war between Saruman and the other leading figures (Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel etc). Following the chaos, Sauron would likely find a way of possessing the ring and returning to Mordor or Rhun either destroying/enslaving Saruman in the process or leaving him to the judgement of good.
In the second scenario, Saruman recognises he can't control Sauron (very unlikely due to his pride/arrogance that is obvious with his dismissal of Radagast). He destroys the ring and redeems himself in the eyes of the west. This gives him immense power and he is probably likely to continue to rule Rohan either directly or as a result of a puppet government under his spell/Dunlendings. However, assuming he still wished to keep Middle Earth safe through power, Gandalf would remain cautious and I think would ultimately prove Saruman's evil in the same way he proved Sauron's existence.
In the third, he first has to hope he survives destroying Sauron and manages to keep the ring in the process. In this state, he is weakened badly but recovers quickly due to the ring at the expense of losing all the good intentions he had in the actual story. In this he probably tries to rule from Isengard and successfully invades Rohan or destabilises the region enough for Dunlendings to invade or just devastate the region irreparably like Rhovanion. Either way, he is still weakened from destroying Sauron and doesn't have a large enough military might to fight off Galadriel in the east, Elrond/Gandalf/Aragorn in the north and Gondor to the south and is ultimately forced out of the region. He flees east (which he knows from his travels) and uses the Morgoth/Sauron cults to increase his credibility. He possibly also links up with the blue wizards and manipulates them as they have very little idea of what is going on in the west. When he feels strong enouugh to return, he is likely to recognise the strategic position of Mordor and fortify in all of Sauron's previous strongholds. In his pride, he will probably want to reclaim Isengard and will use his allies in Dunland and Rhun to claim those regions. At the same time he uses his power with the ring to call on the Nazgul to gather orcs from across Middle-Earth who will have become scattered and lost since the war between him and Sauron. They either gather in the strongholds in the north and from there distract the forces of good or in Mordor where he will keep pressure on Gondor. To do this effectively he needs alliances in Harad but ihe is able to manipulate them in the same way Sauron did. During the few centuries it takes to reach this position, most of the Elves have left Middle-Earth with only figures like Elrond/Galadriel remaining because of Saruman's presence. The Woodland Realm has become completely isolated and other than a few cities in the north like Daleand the Anduin Vale, Rhovanion is still sparsely populated. The Dwarves have also drastically decreased in numbers for logistical reasons with a population being at least two thirds male. Despite this and the either disestablishment or severe reduction in both Rohan's size and population, Gondor and Eriador have prospered without serious threats from orcs and have been enough to keep evil populations in Dunland/Rhudaur in check. Saruman probably uses his allies wherever he has them to fight the kingdoms of men while he reveals himself in Mordor and we get a situation similar to the War of the Ring. He would eventually win all out war via attrition except he doesn't because either the Valar intervene (at the very least they send replacements for the Istari to help Gandalf) or because of his pride he overlooks something insignificant like a hobbit/ent-infested forest and so on.
There's no way he succeeds ruling Middle Earth indefinitely or supremely simply because Eru and the Valar will not let that happen. In terms of lands under his control, in any of the scenarios, they become heavily industrialised. He uses his magic where he has to but Saruman is very intelligent and leads significant technological advancements some of which survive his ultimate downfall. Without the ring he is also content to let powerful rivals survive unless he wants revenge for something or suspects them of directly opposing him (Gandalf). With the ring, he becomes corrupt like Sauron and ultimately desires power over all Middle-Earth and creates vassals rather than allies.
It's worth remembering that while Saruman sided with Sauron during the War of the Ring he did this so he could either bring Sauron down from the inside or limit his effect on Middle-Earth. He wanted to guide Sauron to lesser evil rather than all out control everybody and everything like a normal powerful bad guy does.
Last edited by Dude with the Food; June 29, 2015 at 10:58 AM.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?
Wow, thanks for so detailed answer.
Last edited by Stodul; June 29, 2015 at 05:38 PM.
Campidoctor
Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?
I got a little carried away.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Civis
Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?
Whilst I have read the LOTR twice and the Silmarillion once - I still find it hard to keep pace and understand all that is going on so apologies in advance.
When we talk of the rings power, I don't recall ever seeing it "do anything" aside than the lust for it and obsesion of possessing it and accessing its power corupts people and causes them to be manipulated. Is the power of the ring more the thought invested in it than actually anything it does? Which ultimately can be the same thing I guess.
Moving away from Sauron but keeping the theme - there is this strange motivation for bad guys who seemingly wish to desroy everything. That seems like a pointless and unsatisfactory thing to then rule over. I guess they either have not thought it through or are sadistic. Moreover it is probably why pure evil characters do not exist and are so binary. It is interesting to see some of the other responses and learn bit more again about Sauron's motivations.
Is it possible to imagine a Orc utopia on Middle earth, what we deem bad for Men may be quite a good life for an Orc?! Who knows!
His Dudeness of TWC
Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?
The One was created by Sauron with the specific purpose of ruling all the other Rings of Power (the three, the seven and the nine); while the seven and the nine were created with direct intervention of Sauron (and thus were already somewhat corrupted), the three were made by Celebrimbor and other elves only, therefore Sauron had no power over them. As they were powerful items, the only way for Sauron to control them was to create a similar mean (a ring) and imbue it with a large part of his power (him being a Maia, and so superior in nature to any elf) to have a channel and a tool to actually dominate them (and most important, their bearers). Never forget that the desire of Sauron was dominion over every creature, thus getting a mind control over the elves would have granted him a dominant position on ME (Numenoreans weren't a real enemy at the time of the forging of the One)
for more info, just have a read here
edit:
That's a good question, but it's hard to tell. AFAIK, Orcs lacked in a certain way a real purpose in world (unlike other races that have been created with multiple goals), apart from beeing the armed branch of evil dudes. It is said that in lack of a central power to rule them, for the most part they remained hidden (beeing coward and less skilled than other races) and it seems to be so indeed: when Morgot was imprisoned in Aman the Orcs were so inactive to the point that many believed they were all destroyed and they remained largely inactive also when Sauron was not present (the main foes of Gondor during that period were in fact Easterlings and Southrons).
So we can easily guess that they are not meant to be a "free" race and therefore they could do little with their freedom. A straight example: when Gorbag and Shargat spoke of what would be good for themselves (in the tunnels towards Cirith Ungol) the best they can come out with was simply beeing free from the rule of big evil guys and retiring with some good lads to occasionally plunder and pillage other races/people. I can bet that they would had nothing to do if no opponents were left somewhere (apart from killing each other probably, very much like the real humankind)
Last edited by Flinn; July 01, 2015 at 10:37 AM.
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Decanus
Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?
An interesting post, Jonlion. Besideds Flinn's comments about the One's power over the other rings, it does also grant the obvious invisibility (at least to lesser mortals), which could be very practical on a personal scale. However even invisible Aragorn would likely have difficulty mowing down an army of 20,000 orcs. Many instances of an unstoppable hero or villain seem to relate to morale, such as when all fled before the Witch King or when none could stand before Theoden and Eomer when they activated "hero mode." But I think a lot of it is left to the imagination of the reader. I still cannot imagine how Earendil fought an army of firebreathing dragons in a flying wooden ship
Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?
I haven't read the Tolkien books in a long time, and I am far from an expert; but I am familiar with the styles of writing. Tolkien was using their equivalent of a warning label. For the same reason he didn't talk about rape, they didn't have a way to filter content. He couldn't put a spoiler alert, or childproof it in some way, so the writers of yore would use more creative means to describe things. Let me take a swing at what I think Tolkien meant, but was not, culturally, allowed to put to word.
There are several things to consider here:Finally, there is a cogent point, though horrible to relate. It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning.
There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men...
-using Ngugi's quote here
- Wickedest Deed- This is a red flag. If what is attached doesn't sound that bad, then you are not thinking it through very carefully. Tolkien was a master writer and would not, in my opinion, have misused the word.
- Horrible to Relate - Again, a red flag, if you figure out what he might have had to do, you should be horrified. Between this and Wickedest Deed is probably the cultural equivalent of a SPOILER ALERT. Don't figure this out if you want to stay sane.
- Rediscovered - This was not the simple act of getting a boy and girl together in the same room. It could very easily imply that there was experimentation and failure. When getting two species, plant or animal, to successfully produce a viable offspring. The number of failures could be in the hundreds or even hundreds of thousands.
- Under the Domination...be reduced...Orc-Level of mind - To dominate is the complete destroy the willpower of the individual. Mind-control to the extent that permanent damage was done, over the course of generations, Saruman would have had to reduce these 'candidates' to the a near animalistic level.
- Lust for Mastery - Saruman was willing to do anything to obtain the power he coveted. He wasn't doing this so Romeo-Human could marry Juliet-Orc, but to produce an army.
- Interbreeding - Harmless enough if you think about it in an overly romanticized context. Breeding isn't just a nice way of saying having sex. It's also the word used to describe what men at cattle yards do. Have you ever wondered about how we have enough Turkeys for just thanksgiving? Over one-million animals butchered...
See now I am going to put spoilers up. If you are sickened already, don't read this.Stopping while I write this. Don't read it. I need a shower.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
If you don't think that is some seriously <Removed> then I don't know what to say to you. This is why writers of old said things like 'wickedest deed' or 'the soldiers carried themselves honorably'. People back then were, in some ways, less naive about the way the world works. Tolkien probably saw some FuS himself, and I am confident that the readers of Yore would have understood the context of this statement.
This is some of the most FuS that I have ever even thought about, much less put to pen. So yeah, I would say this was his wickedest deed. Many fates are worse than death.
Censor Bypasses removed from the post, please don't violate the ToS again. ~ Finlander, TWC Moderator
Last edited by Finlander; July 22, 2015 at 01:15 PM.
Civis
Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?
lets see sauron takes over, kills everything, enslaves everything else, once everyone but orcs is dead, reins for a few years, creates a fighting pit Colosseum to entertain himself, and then realizes ultimate power is actually boring.
Call me Ishmael
Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?
If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, then Sauron would FINALLY feel secure and comfortable enough to come out of the closet already and announce his LGBT identity and lifestyle, eliminating the social stigmas once so arrogantly enforced by the gay-haters of Gondor, especially against people born with both sets of genitalia.Sauron would then inform everyone that he is in fact a she (with both bits downstairs, including a micro penis), and her name from then on would be Saurana. She would get to use all the bathrooms in Middle Earth and no one could ever complain!
Barad-Dur would then be transformed into a gigantic homosexual spa resort with gay molten lava swimming pools, night clubs and gay bars.
Decanus
Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?
I must have missed the Tolkien letter about hermaphrodite Sauron
Call me Ishmael
Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?
Tolkein made sure to ship that letter off to the Undying Lands so that Sauron's secret would be kept safe (and so that no one could out him before he had a chance to come out of the closet all by himself).
Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?
Did you know Tolkien invented a word for hermaphrodite?:
gwegwin (in the Gnomish lexicon)....
Call me Ishmael
Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?
Tolkien was a prolific goddamn genius. I'm sure he made up some Gnomish word for something like ecdemomania too (i.e. abnormal compulsion for wandering). Seriously, the man was one of the greatest linguistic wunderkinds of the 20th century.
Campidoctor
Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?
I don't think the Orcs would get bored once the men, dwarves and elves are gone.
If I recall correctly, Orcs find killing each other the second best sport besides killing the aformentioned races. Unless intervened by Sauron, Orcs, Goblins and Uruks would probably embark on an endless, bloody war against each other.
"He who wishes to be the best for his people, must do that which is necessary - and be willing to go to hell for it."
Let the Preservation, Advancement and Evolution of Mankind be our Greater Good.
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Call me Ishmael
Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?
If Sauron conquered Middle Earth, he would implement all the forgotten arcane policies proposed by the once great Ross Perot.
Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?
A thousand years of enlightment without the conservative medievalism of humans, the aristocratic tyranny of elves and the oppresive autocracy of dwarves. Racism and misogyny will end and the lower classes of the world will take power bulding a society of equality, liberty and fraternity. Vive la Revolution!
L'Enfant Terrible
Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?
True that. Few people know, but Sauron was actually a staunch communist activist.
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