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Thread: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

  1. #181

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bowmaster View Post
    Easy: everything would be under Sauron's dominion, Elves are dead, remaining Dwarves are hiding in the mountains and all Men are under his will. Also every corner in ME would become Mordor.
    And how would be the world today so? I suppose Sauron wouldn't go into some freaking erradication campaign, so the humans would not be extinct.


  2. #182
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    I think that eventually the remaining Uruks, Orcs and Gobblins would turn on the evil men, the Men of Dunlend, Khad, Easternlings and Southrons and eliminate men from middle earth

  3. #183
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    There was a book written once, or an essay, where Frodo had failed and everything The Mouth said to the representatives come true. The Free Peoples' survivors were hiding in mountains and forests, etc.

    I cannot recall its name, never read it- merely heard about it, and the guy who told me died last week...

  4. #184

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Why do you all think that Sauron would make ME all evil if conquered Middle Earth?

  5. #185

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Because he was evil?

    It would not look like Mordor naturally, since that was due to the vulcano, but it's simply to look at what he had south Mirkwood made into and how the wicked cultures of Men devloped who were under his dominion to get a picture of how ME under Sauron would turn up.

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  6. #186
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayattasa View Post
    And how would be the world today so? I suppose Sauron wouldn't go into some freaking erradication campaign, so the humans would not be extinct.
    I didn't say the Men would be extinct, I said they'd be under his will. All of them. Elves might just make it to the Havens, so no member of any Elvish race would be there. Also what would of the world today, you ask.

    Wait, now I get it what would be of the world today. The Elves would once more sail from Valinor to defeat the Evil there ("Sauron is using my Mirror! Revenge!" says Galadriel and gathers a great host of Elves). Of course it'd take a long time, but they've got the lifetime of the world of time to decide, and eventually, somebody would want to defeat Sauron. Then the Elder Days of the Elves would begin again!
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  7. #187
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Why would elves want to return to Middle-Earth with its taint and waning when they have Aman?

    In fact Sauron wanted originally to order things, he wanted order and discipline and to lessen the chaos of life. Hence it is likely that M-E under Sauron would be something along the lines of Nazi Germany, East Germany or the USSR- but with less actual chaos. Just everyone behaving in a good, orderly and disciplined fashion. Maybe along the lines of "1984"?

  8. #188
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    But the description of the years of darkness, before Númenoreans returned to ME, describes the men of ME huddling in the night terrified of what was beyond the light. This speaks to me of a world full of terror where death can come to you at any time and life is short and brutal. It puts me in mind of the Jewish ghetto in nazi Germany rather than the regime as a whole or even the gulags (not the concentration camps though since the goal was not to exterminate the populous). Altogether evil and dark imo.
    Were there but a tree in this godforsaken place i would have hanged myself.

  9. #189
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    I think you will find that ordinary Germans were very much afraid at night in 1944-'45, and not just afraid of death from above, but for that knock on the door because someone had denounced them. If you think of that, then add to it that Sauron had monsters at his disposal monsters that thrive at night; the Nazgûl, Orks, Trolls, Wargs, perhaps other things- unleashed at night to roam streets and countryside to create fear, for in a totalitarian regime fear is the prerequisite for order...

  10. #190

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Though that concerns the areas where Sauron was not active, seemingly only working with propaganda and such, due to the proximity to the Elven states in teh Northwest corner of ME.
    In other areas it was different;
    In the east and south well nigh all Men were under his dominion, and they grew strong in those days and built many towns and walls of stone, and they were numerous and fierce in war and aimed with iron.
    -Akallabeth
    EDIT: Naturally they might feared the night as well, as they feared their 'god' Sauron.

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  11. #191

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Actually Sauron was good in the beginning, his objectives seemed benign on the surface; he wanted to bring peace, order and industry to middle earth and he thought alliance with Morgoth was the best way achieve that. Sauron and Saruman shared that much in common; they were both industrialists, and Tolkien saw the departure from an agrarian society and the rise of industrialism as a form of evil... So what was Saurons ultimate goal? Maybe an efficient world of mass production and control that's not so different to the one we live in

  12. #192
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Macilrille View Post
    There was a book written once, or an essay, where Frodo had failed and everything The Mouth said to the representatives come true. The Free Peoples' survivors were hiding in mountains and forests, etc.

    I cannot recall its name, never read it- merely heard about it, and the guy who told me died last week...
    Technically Frodo did fail I have read Council of Elrond recently trying to understand the subtlties of the text in terms of defining the quest. The clearest I've been able to find, unambiguously, that the objective is to destroy the ring in the fire at the Crack of Doom.

    Frodo's failure was that at the last possible moment Frodo decided to keep the ring for himself and had Gollum not unwittingly done the deed, it would not have been done. True, Frodo did a HUGE amount to further the objectives of the quest, more than any other character. But at that last critical moment, when the act had to be done, he failed to throw it in. Frodo failed to destroy the ring while it was still in his possesion and, as such, Frodo failed. Ultimately, the quest succeeded but Frodo, personally, failed.

  13. #193

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Macilrille View Post
    Why would elves want to return to Middle-Earth with its taint and waning when they have Aman?

    In fact Sauron wanted originally to order things, he wanted order and discipline and to lessen the chaos of life. Hence it is likely that M-E under Sauron would be something along the lines of Nazi Germany, East Germany or the USSR- but with less actual chaos. Just everyone behaving in a good, orderly and disciplined fashion. Maybe along the lines of "1984"?
    I agree, after reading and learning more about the character of Sauron, I always think that if he won, 1984 scenario would happen. He was all about order, and I'd probably hire him as a manager for a store and everything haha

  14. #194
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charger Bolt View Post
    Technically Frodo did fail I have read Council of Elrond recently trying to understand the subtlties of the text in terms of defining the quest. The clearest I've been able to find, unambiguously, that the objective is to destroy the ring in the fire at the Crack of Doom.

    Frodo's failure was that at the last possible moment Frodo decided to keep the ring for himself and had Gollum not unwittingly done the deed, it would not have been done. True, Frodo did a HUGE amount to further the objectives of the quest, more than any other character. But at that last critical moment, when the act had to be done, he failed to throw it in. Frodo failed to destroy the ring while it was still in his possesion and, as such, Frodo failed. Ultimately, the quest succeeded but Frodo, personally, failed.
    True.
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  15. #195

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    everyone, it has already been stated by Tolkein that Sauron was under Melkor's banner because he liked order. he joined Melkor so that he, and his master, could shape the world as they saw fit. that being said, he would go about shaping the world in a way that tickled his fancy.

  16. #196
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    I don't understand why Melkor or Sauron even try? I mean if he even comes close to winning the Valar just come over and steamroll them with their pinkies.

  17. #197

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow2daknee View Post
    I don't understand why Melkor or Sauron even try? I mean if he even comes close to winning the Valar just come over and steamroll them with their pinkies.
    because its all a part of Eru's devine will...do you dare to question Eru-Illuvatar?

  18. #198
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Good thing I found this before starting a new thread. I have been pondering this myself lately. Hypothetically, Sauron wins, drives out or exterminates or corrupts all the elves, enslaves the menfolk, etc.

    Then what?

    I love the Lord of the Rings movies, I think they are great, but, for understandable reasons, I feel Peter Jackson went a little overboard in demonizing Sauron. Not that Sauron wasn't bad, just that he wasn't so doom and gloom, mustache twirling, MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, Doctor Evil bad. Everything we know about Sauron, how he acts and how he thinks, it's all Sauron during wartime. Even the most noble nations and people can look scary during wartime, let alone one who already starts off rather towards the infamous side.

    Don't misunderstand me, Sauron winning could be nothing but bad, but I don't think it's bad like wiping out everything and turning it into a charred, blackened wasteland. He would likely be very hard on his enemies, elves and the Men of the West, but otherwise I think it likely life would go one mostly as it did before, or at least, no different than it would if a human tyrant had taken over. There would probably be good upsides. Laws being strictly upheld, lower crime rate, infrastructure repaired and built, the wilds tamed to allow humans to live there more easily. All the sorts of things that a strict, orderly, industrialist fascist/theocratic dictatorship would do. Probably something like a prosperous North Korea. Bad surely, compared to what we have, but it works. If I recall correctly, Sauron did not create the orcs and trolls and all the vile beasts, his master did, and he simply used the tools he was given. Knowing what I do about Sauron, I think given the choice, his armies and servants would be far more orderly. Honestly, all out warfare seemed an afterthought to Sauron. He wanted to dominate by more subtle means, he was simply thwarted and driven towards war by his defeats in other areas.

    Alternatively, perhaps all the defeats and fear and evil has corrupted him utterly and made him insane. He would try to build the world he sees in his head, but always fail, wiping out entire cities when they don't bend to his will, enraged and genocidal and seeking to gain total control, one way or another. Instead of schools, gulags. Instead of roads, gibbets.

    Okay. Either assumption I think is valid, but both are irrelevant to my point. Those things could happen, but even then, why would they happen? What is Sauron's end goal? Surely not to free Morgoth, for reasons already brought up in this thread. Surely not to battle the Valar, again, for reasons already explained. So... What, then? What did he expect would happen?

    Did he not know of Dagor Dagorath? For that matter, did Melkor not know of Dagor Dagorath? Or did they both know, and simply sought to defy Eru himself?

    (Not to get too off topic, but I've always thought it boring to have the 'good' guys destined to win. It's why Christian mythology is boring to me, because the 'bad' guy is simply going to lose, by default. It's destined. Same with Tolkien's mythology. Melkor loses in the end, no matter what, because that is Eru's plan.

    I like to think it's all a lie. Eru has no plan, he just claims everything that happens is part of his plan.

    "Oh great Illuvatar, Sauron has regained his Master Ring and enslaved all of Middle Earth under his dominion!"

    "He what? Er, I mean... YES. 'TIS SIMPLY A PART OF MY DIVINE AND PERFECT PLAN. I MEANT FOR THAT TO HAPPEN.")

    But I digress. I don't really have any lore to back this up, but I think perhaps Eru is not as perfect as he claims to be. Melkor and Sauron are bad, for sure. They have been corrupted and weakened and likely driven insane by their struggle, but I think they are no more evil than the Ulairi. That is, they are evil, they do evil things, but they didn't start out being evil. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, it's not like they were allies or friends before Arda, and yet they joined forces to battle against, not the Valar, but Eru himself, by defying his will. Why? Greed? Arrogance? Was it truly so simple as that? Perhaps they saw something, perhaps they knew something of Eru that we do not. Perhaps Melkor, being the greatest and closest to Eru, saw his plans as none of the other Ainur did.

    Not excusing Sauron, but perhaps it's more complicated than good vs. evil. What if neither side is good? The Valar, I think, are good. Moral. They want what is best for Arda. The Elves, likewise, are good, at least many of them are. But Eru? We know nothing of Eru, save for what Eru has claimed. What if, hypothetically, Eru is no different than the Ainur, but is simply more powerful than them? He is to the Valar what the Valar are to the Maiar, but has deceived them all into believing him to be fundamentally superior to them, and Melkor simply realized this and rebelled. Perhaps only due to his arrogance and a sense of betrayal, rather than to expose the lie, because he's not good either, but that is my point. Neither are 'good', it's just a power struggle between a king and an upstart lord vying for the throne, except this throne is the throne of godhood, rather than Gondor.

    After all, it holds all the signs of being propaganda. Black and white portrayal of events, irredeemable antagonists and completely noble, just protagonists, with "God" on their side, fighting for freedom against a tyrannical dictatorship (By forming a massive continent-spanning monarchic empire?) It absolutely reeks of "History written by the victors."


    I have little doubt that Sauron and Melkor did horrible things, but didn't the Valar as well? Sinking entire lands under the ocean, destroying kingdoms, using less important races as pawns in their power struggles. Orcs slaughtered men and elves by the thousands, but likewise we slaughtered them. A person in another discussion brought up a reference from the book about orcs who were fighting to the last to avenge their fallen chieftain. If they were men, we would call them heroic. They fought amongst each other constantly but, damn, how many civil wars did Gondor have? How many wars against Easterlings and Haradrim did Gondor fight? Orcs, especially in Mordor, were barbaric and fought with each other, in clans and individually, constantly. But Dunlandings were nearly as bad, and they were human, and they were the same even before siding with Saruman. The orcs of Goblin Town and Gundabad always struck me as more "Civilized" than the ones in Mordor. The ones in Mordor were mere canon fodder, but in the Misty Mountains, far from the major battlegrounds, they had more time to form clans and towns, of a sort. Still violent and barbaric, but humans can be very violent and barbaric as well.

    Bah, I am getting off point again. This has been kind of very long and rambling. It's late, and I have been thinking about this for a while. To summarize my point, I view Tolkien's mythology in the same way I view the Bible. It's clear the writers wanted it to be black and white. Good and evil. Clear cut lines drawn in the sand. Some people like that, but I find it rather boring. Any book that promotes one side and demonizes the other to such an extreme extent immediately makes it suspect in my eyes, especially if the other side is never even given a chance to rebuke all these claims. So I do the same with fantasy. What if Satan is the good one, and 'God' simply won the civil war in heaven, imprisoned him, and flooded the world of all the previous god's supporters, saving only those who supported him? What if Melkor's rebellion was justified, but simply spiraled out of control when it's leader became corrupted and bent on destroying everything his enemy created, even if it shouldn't be destroyed, and the poor innocent Ainur, and lesser races were simply caught in the crossfire?

    Nothing in the lore to back that up, I suppose, but I find it makes a more interesting story.

    Plus is lets me play the Mordor faction without feeling so guilty...
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  19. #199

    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    You want to know what would be the result of Sauron's dominion in peace time? He has actually already showed how he would rule.
    This what: a theological dictatorship, lasting till the end of days, oppressing subjects and those devoted to freedom alike through the tools of force and fear.
    Now Sauron's lust and pride increased, until he knew no bounds, and he determined to make himself master of all things in Middle-earth, and to destroy the Elves, and to compass, if he might, the downfall of Númenor. He brooked no freedom nor any rivalry, and he named himself Lord of the Earth. A mask he still could wear so that if he wished he might deceive the eyes of Men, seeming to them wise and fair. But he ruled rather by force and fear, if they might avail; and those who perceived his shadow spreading over the world called him the Dark Lord and named him the Enemy; and he gathered again under his government all the evil things of the days of Morgoth that remained on earth or beneath it, and the Orcs were at his command and multiplied like flies.
    Thus the Black Years began, which the Elves call the Days of Flight. In that time many of the Elves of Middle-earth fled to Lindon and thence over the seas never to return; and many were destroyed by Sauron and his servants. But in Lindon Gil-galad still maintained his power, and Sauron dared not as yet to pass the Mountains of Ered Luin nor to assail the Havens; and Gil-galad was aided by the Númenóreans. Elsewhere Sauron reigned, and those who would be free took refuge in the fastnesses of wood and mountain, and ever fear pursued them.
    In the east and south well nigh all Men were under his dominion, and they grew strong in those days and built many towns and walls of stone, and they were numerous and fierce in war and aimed with iron. To them Sauron was both king and god; and they feared him exceedingly, for he surrounded his abode with fire.

    - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
    I could go on and provide you a throughout respons to each argument and question you rise from lore quotations, but I will ask first, in all honesty: is your intent to learn what Tolkien infomred us about, or to share your own personal nihilistic speculation?
    Because if the latter, which is usually the case when people come around, and your post seems to present itself as, and is nothing wrong for personal use I may add, a respons of mine is not required, and I prefere to not invest the time to it

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  20. #200
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: If Sauron and his armies had conquered Middle Earth, what would they have done with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peahead View Post
    Actually Sauron was good in the beginning, his objectives seemed benign on the surface; he wanted to bring peace, order and industry to middle earth and he thought alliance with Morgoth was the best way achieve that. Sauron and Saruman shared that much in common; they were both industrialists, and Tolkien saw the departure from an agrarian society and the rise of industrialism as a form of evil... So what was Saurons ultimate goal? Maybe an efficient world of mass production and control that's not so different to the one we live in
    This answer sounds legit; thanks for sharing!

    Perhaps Sauron just wanted to establish a Krispy Kreme doughnut franchise and restaurant chain, but the goddamn Dunedain wouldn't let him (monopolized the production of doughnuts using crap technology that Sauron wanted to improve). That's my theory.

    Tolkien is really infuriating sometimes. In some private letter he confirmed that female Orcs existed, but he doesn't mention them once in his books. Instead he's just super ambiguous about their origins. I wish for once he would have not tried to be all mysterious and just given us a concrete explanation for the origins and reproduction of the Orcs.

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