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Thread: Napoleon : Masters of Europe (MoE), a new mod by l'Aigle and Steph

  1. #181
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: Napoleon : Masters of Europe (MoE), a new mod by l'Aigle and Steph

    About "small" navies:

    For Prussia and Austria, I’ll just use a generic Navy (as all the minor faction). Almost no preplaced units except some sloop or brigs, but if you want to play one of these factions, you should be able to recruit something.
    I think a 74 max is more than sufficient as generic unit. And with a low limit.
    Perhaps 2x74, 3 x 64 and 3x50, then only frigates.


    About the recruitement of navies.

    The recruitment of the navy is limited to the national regions. I.e.: British ships only recruitable in the 4 British region.

    Then, if the French capture a British region, they could built British ships instead of French ones there.

    And so if France capture a Prussian region, they won’t be able to build something better than 74, even if France have the resources and knowledge to built a 122

    My reasoning here is that to develop the naval yard, you’d need also some knowledge and local shipbuilding tradition, and I think it’s difficult to acquire in the 10 years of the campaign.

    So if you play as Prussia and want one day to invade Britain, then you’d better try to capture Denmark or Holland, to use their shipyard to build a stronger navy.

    Not only because they will allow bigger ships, but also because since the ships are region limited, and have a unit limit, capturing “naval regions” will increase the unit limit you can have.

    And for Russia, I have separated Baltic Sea / Black Sea, with different ship classes, each with its own limit.

    Last, the national navy can have several classes for the same rate of ship (like Britain has several 74-guns classes). But for "occupied navy", there will be only one class of each.
    Last edited by Steph; October 31, 2011 at 08:48 AM.

  2. #182
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: Napoleon : Masters of Europe (MoE), a new mod by l'Aigle and Steph

    When reviewing the navy list, and working on the next navies such as Portugal, I'm starting to wonder if I'm going the best path.

    I have some troubles with the name of ships and class, and number of ships in a class.

    First, the name of ships is in one big list for each faction. It cannot be split in different types of ships.

    So if I take the example of Britain, I can but in the ship name "HMS Caledonia" and "HMS Victory", but I cannot force the "HMS Victory" to be used for a 106-guns, and Caledonia for a 122.
    I can only do that for preplaced units.

    So if the name of the type of Ship is 120-guns 1st rate ship-of-the-line of the 'Caledonia' class, when it will be recruited, it could be name "HMS Victory", and the Caledonia name could never be used by this class.

    I find it inconsistent. There is a way in the editor to force the unit to use the name of the type instead of a specific name, but then all the ships from the class would be name "120-guns 1st rate ship-of-the-line of the 'Caledonia' class, 120-guns 1st rate ship-of-the-line of the 'Caledonia' class"

    The name would appear twice, not very nice.

    Beside, for France, classes have a real interest. For 74-guns, there are only two classes, Téméraire with 82 ships and Pluton with 25 ships.

    Bur for some other factions, like Portugal, almost each ship is unique.

    To be "historical", I'd need to add many types of ships, and with a recruit limit of 1.

    I'm wondering if it won't be better to use a different approach.

    1) Instead of creating for a faction
    - 5 types of 74-guns ship with a limit of 1
    - 2 types of 86-guns with a limit of 1
    - 4 types of 64-guns with a limit of 1

    I create
    - 1 type of 74-guns with a limit of 5
    - 1 types of 86-guns with a limit of 2
    - 1 types of 64-guns with a limit of 4

    2) And instead of using specific names, I use a generic name, but put the name of the class/ships in the ship name pool.

    So for Britain instead of
    - 74-guns 3rd rate ship-of-the-line of the 'Vengeur' class, limit = 20
    - 74-guns 3rd rate ship-of-the-line of the 'Repulse' class, limit = 6
    - 74-guns 3rd rate ship-of-the-line of the 'Courageux' class, limit = 9
    - 74-guns 3rd rate ship-of-the-line, generic for the "small classes", limit = 30

    I could just have one type
    - 74-guns 3rd rate ship-of-the-line, generic for all classes", limit = 60.

    But in the names, you'll find "Vengeur", "Repulse", "Courageux"...

    For preplaced units, I can check that "Repulse" is associated to a 74-guns, and Nelson's ships if the "Victory", but then for ships recruited later, they would just use one of the generic name, which cannot be avoided with the current engine anyway.

    To sum up, I want to reduce the number of classes, but increase the recruitment limit, to avoid having a specific name for ship in the name of the unit type. However, preplaced ships will still get a correct name.

    I may keep several classes for the same size of ships if the armament is really different to justify it.

    In the above case, the Repulse, Vengeur and Courageux classes all have the same types of ships.


    I am also considering making "port" copies of the ships and split the recruitment limit.

    Ex for France, instead of one 74-guns ship with a limit of 40, have
    - 74-guns Brest
    - 74-guns Bastia
    - 74-guns Antwerpen
    - 74-guns Nantes
    - 74-guns Le Havre
    - 74-guns Calais
    - 74-guns Toulon

    7 ports, so a limit of 5-6 recruit each.

    If you lose half of your ports, you cannot recruit more than 20 ships.
    Last edited by Steph; October 31, 2011 at 05:21 PM.

  3. #183
    Prince of Essling's Avatar Napoleonic Enthusiast
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    Default Re: Napoleon : Masters of Europe (MoE), a new mod by l'Aigle and Steph

    With the problems we have discovered looking at the composition of the navy for each individual nation (some with lots of individual ships e.g. Portugal, others like Spain always remodelling vessels so that you end up with several different configurations within a class etc)& you have highlighted with the game's engine, I think there is no choice but to go down the generic ship model route.

    For preplaced units, it would be good to ensure that some ships have proper names allocated at the start e.g. Nelson's ship is the "Victory", but then for ships recruited later, they would just use one of the generic name, which cannot be avoided with the current engine anyway.

    Only if the armament is really, really different should you consider having several classes for the same size of ships - but because of the engine's problems this should really be an exceptional case.

    I note you are also considering making "port" copies of the ships and split the recruitment limit. It may be best to do this with just those ports that did have real ship building capability - I am not sure Bastia & Calais should be on the list for ships of the line....
    Last edited by Prince of Essling; October 31, 2011 at 05:52 PM. Reason: correction & expansion
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  4. #184
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: Napoleon : Masters of Europe (MoE), a new mod by l'Aigle and Steph

    About ports:

    The recruitment will be linked to the building type. At the beginning of the campaign, Calais is an empty slot. If you decided to build a level 4 dockyard there, then why couldn't you built a ship of the line there?

    Of course, the biggest ship of the line will be limited to buliding level 4. I imagine something like
    - Level 1 = Sloop, Brig, Merchantman, Frigate
    - Level 2 = Two Deckers (50, 64, 74 and 80 guns) + Indiaman
    - Level 3 = Three Deckers (86, 98, and 106 guns)
    - Level 4 = "4 Deckers" (122 and 140 guns)

    Beside, I can also play with the regions for the copy.

    I can make "Ocean class" recruitable in Brest or Toulon but not in Calais, while 74-guns can be recruited also in Calais.
    I can also make the limit for Calais = 2 x 74-guns, while in Brest it is 4 x 74-guns.

    The Pluton-serie for instance was a smaller version of the Téméraire designed to be build in smaller shipyard. So we can consider the "Brest" copy is the normal Téméraire, while the "Calais" copy is the shortest Pluton version.


    By the way, for infantry, the "region copies" are named after the region. Something like
    - Cuirassier {Picardie}, Cuirassier {France}, Cuirassier {Alsace}

    For the ships, I could use the same 74-guns {Bretagne}, 74-guns {Provence}, or use the name of the port, i.e. 74-guns {Brest}, 74-guns {Toulon}.
    But what can I use for England, which has 3 ports?
    Last edited by Steph; November 01, 2011 at 12:45 AM.

  5. #185
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Icon1 Re: Napoleon : Masters of Europe (MoE), a new mod by l'Aigle and Steph

    Following the exchanges with Prince of Essling, here are the revised streamlined navies, with the names, and also the total recruit limits.

    France



    8 x Vaisseau de ligne de 118
    14 x Vaisseau de ligne de 80
    41 x Vaisseau de ligne de 74
    12 x Vaisseau de ligne de 74 - Petit modèle
    40 x Frégate de 18
    10 x Frégate à carronade
    50 x Frégate de 12
    15 x Corvette
    30 x Brick
    30 x Sloop
    6 x Bombarde
    10 x Navire de commerce armé
    Navire de commerce


    Britain



    3 x 120-guns 1st rate ship-of-the-line
    4 x 106-guns 1st rate ship-of-the-line
    4 x 98-guns 2nd rate ship-of-the-line
    3 x 80-guns 3rd rate ship-of-the-line
    4 x 74-guns heavy 3rd rate ship-of-the-lines
    65 x 74-guns 3rd rate ship-of-the-lines
    16 x 64-guns 3rd rate ship-of-the-lines
    30 x 50-guns 4th rate ship
    35 x 38-guns 5th rate frigate
    20 x Carronade frigate
    25 x 32-guns 5th rate frigate
    25 x 24-guns 6th rate frigate
    30 x Brig
    30 x Sloop-of-war
    12 x Bomb ketch
    4 x Rocket ship
    12 x Armed Indiaman
    Merchantmen


    Russia



    2 x 122-pushechny lineyny korabl
    4 x 106-pushechny lineyny korabl
    4 x 98-pushechny lineyny korabl
    1 x 86-pushechny lineyny korabl
    6 x 80-pushechny lineyny korabl
    12 x 74-pushechny lineyny korabl klassa "Anapa"
    22 x 74-pushechny lineyny korabl
    17 x 64-pushechny lineyny korabl
    6 x 50-pushechny lineyny korabl
    12 x 38-pushechny fregat
    6 x Karronada fregat
    15 x 32-pushechny fregat
    20 x Brig
    20 x Shlyup
    8 x Bombardirskyi korabl
    30 x Galera
    8 x Vooruzhennoye torgovoye sudno
    Torgovoye sudno


    Spain



    1 x Navío de línea de 140 cañones
    1 x Navío de línea de 122 cañones
    6 x Navío de línea de 106 cañones
    2 x Navío de línea de 80 cañones
    8 x Navío de línea pesada de 74 cañones
    12 x Navío de línea de 74 cañones
    4 x Navío de línea de 64 cañones
    6 x Navío de línea de 50 cañones
    12 x Fragata de 38 cañones
    6 x Fragata Carronada
    15 x Fragata de 32 cañones
    20 x Corbeta de 24 cañones
    20 x Bergantín
    20 x Balandra de guerra
    8 x Buque de bombardeo
    8 x Navío mercante
    Buque mercante

  6. #186
    Andre J. Jassoch's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Napoleon : Masters of Europe (MoE), a new mod by l'Aigle and Steph


    No comment.

  7. #187

    Default Re: Napoleon : Masters of Europe (MoE), a new mod by l'Aigle and Steph



    absolutly incredible =)

    Grande impatience, bon courage à vous

  8. #188

    Default Re: Napoleon : Masters of Europe (MoE), a new mod by l'Aigle and Steph

    Oui, ce qu'il a dit.

  9. #189
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: Napoleon : Masters of Europe (MoE), a new mod by l'Aigle and Steph

    The Danish navy






    1 x 98-kanoner linjeskib
    2 x 86-kanoner linjeskib
    2 x 80-kanoner linjeskib
    11 x 74-kanoner linjeskib
    4 x 64-kanoner linjeskib
    1 x 50-kanoner linjeskib
    12 x 38-kanoner Fregat
    10 x Karronadefregat
    12 x 32-kanoner Fregat
    8 x 24-kanoner Korvet
    20 x Brig
    20 x Slup
    30 x Kanonbåd
    10 x Bombardeerfartoej
    Handelsskib
    8 x Kinafarer

  10. #190
    Dee Jay's Avatar I'm gone....
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    Default Re: Napoleon : Masters of Europe (MoE), a new mod by l'Aigle and Steph

    Nice to see that you included Gunboats in their roster (not sure if vanilla game had them).

  11. #191
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: Napoleon : Masters of Europe (MoE), a new mod by l'Aigle and Steph

    Swedish navy






    1 x 80-kanoners linjeskepp
    3 x 74-kanoners linjeskepp
    3 x 64-kanoners linjeskepp Kronprins Gustaf Adolph klass
    3 x 64-kanoners linjeskepp
    2 x 50-kanoners linjeskepp
    6 x 38-kanoners fregatt
    4 x Karronader fregatt
    6 x 32-kanoners fregatt
    20 x Brigg
    25 x Slup
    8 x Bombkits
    30 x Kanonbåt
    8 x Ostindiefarare
    Handelsfartyg




    @DJ: vanilla game is highly historically accurate with their ironclads and steamships anway

  12. #192
    Treva ★'s Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Napoleon : Masters of Europe (MoE), a new mod by l'Aigle and Steph

    Steph, I'd never seen you diss a vanilla game before.
    The tentacled horror from beyond my stars spoke, and von Neumann help me, in my madness, I understood its words.
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  13. #193

    Default Re: Napoleon : Masters of Europe (MoE), a new mod by l'Aigle and Steph

    to my eyes they seem all identical

  14. #194
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: Napoleon : Masters of Europe (MoE), a new mod by l'Aigle and Steph

    The ship models are almost identical to start with.

  15. #195
    Dee Jay's Avatar I'm gone....
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    Default Re: Napoleon : Masters of Europe (MoE), a new mod by l'Aigle and Steph

    Oh yeah, the Ironclads and steam ships thank you for leaving them out

  16. #196
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: Napoleon : Masters of Europe (MoE), a new mod by l'Aigle and Steph

    CA got it almost right. They are just 30 years off including them . To be compared with the 8 years duration of the vanilla grand campaign

  17. #197
    agranel's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Napoleon : Masters of Europe (MoE), a new mod by l'Aigle and Steph

    Great! It looks fantastic. Just a small correction: is "Santísima Trinidad", not "Santissima Trinidad"

    Quote Originally Posted by Steph View Post
    Spanish navy





    First line
    - Navío de línea de 140 cañones ''Santíssima Trinidad''
    - Navío de línea de 122 cañones ''Santa Ana''
    - Navío de línea de 106 cañones ''Rayo''
    - Navío de línea de 106 cañones ''San Carlos''
    - Navío de línea de 106 cañones de la clase 'Santa Ana'
    - Navío de línea de 80 cañones de la clase 'Neptuno'
    - Navío de línea de 74 cañones de la clase 'San Juan Nepomuceno'
    - Navío de línea de 74 cañones de la clase 'San Ildefonso'
    - Navío de línea de 64 cañones de la clase 'America'
    - Navío de línea de 50 cañones de la clase 'Campeon'

    Second line
    - Fragata de 38 cañones
    - Fragata Carronada
    - Fragata de 32 cañones
    - Corbeta de 24 cañones
    - Bergantín
    - Balandra de guerra
    - Buque de bombardeo
    - Buque mercante
    - Navío mercante

  18. #198
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: Napoleon : Masters of Europe (MoE), a new mod by l'Aigle and Steph

    Thanks, but you quote an "old" list.

    Name of units is now

    1 x Navío de línea de 140 cañones
    1 x Navío de línea de 122 cañones
    6 x Navío de línea de 106 cañones
    2 x Navío de línea de 80 cañones
    8 x Navío de línea pesada de 74 cañones
    12 x Navío de línea de 74 cañones
    4 x Navío de línea de 64 cañones
    6 x Navío de línea de 50 cañones
    12 x Fragata de 38 cañones
    6 x Fragata Carronada
    15 x Fragata de 32 cañones
    20 x Corbeta de 24 cañones
    20 x Bergantín
    20 x Balandra de guerra
    8 x Buque de bombardeo
    8 x Navío mercante
    Buque mercante

    And then the ship names include the correct spelling "Santisima Trinidad"

  19. #199
    Treva ★'s Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Napoleon : Masters of Europe (MoE), a new mod by l'Aigle and Steph

    It's 'Santísima' Trinidad. Accents are important in Spanish.

    Also
    Navío de línea pesada de 74 cañones
    Pesada=f.
    Línea=f.
    Navío=m.
    So, if the ship itself is 'Heavy X ship', it should be 'Navío de línea pesado'.
    The tentacled horror from beyond my stars spoke, and von Neumann help me, in my madness, I understood its words.
    СИНДИКАТ!
    Dè a tha Montrose Mór ag ràdh?
    Heavy Metal will never die. - Sir Christopher Frank Carrandini Lee.

  20. #200
    Dee Jay's Avatar I'm gone....
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    Default Re: Napoleon : Masters of Europe (MoE), a new mod by l'Aigle and Steph

    Nice work Steph

    But I was wondering if you were thinking of cutting down the limitsof Ships a bit, maybe a third of what it is, or a quater? Because at the moment you can make A LOT of big fleets.

    Thanks

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