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Thread: balancing factions streng .

  1. #1

    Default balancing factions streng .

    hi guys i was just cheking the costum battles in ROP.

    I realized sth about the factions who didn't matched the discribtion for exampel the medians should have the best cavelary and persians the best archers now this are the atck,defense,charge,missile atck of each factions units

    cav :

    1.Iranian body gaurds :
    11 , 16 , 11 , 12

    2.arizantie cavelary(median cav wich are suppose to be the best in the game) :
    11 , 13 , 8 , 14

    3.anusiya asabari :
    9 , 16 , 8 , 11

    4.the lydians (should be good but still not as good as the medians) :
    13 , 14 , 14 , 12

    (the lydians have the highest charge between all cavs)

    5.bobylonians :
    10 , 15 , 9 , 10

    6.macedonians (none skirmisher cav) :
    9 , 14 , 8

    7.macedonian hitairoi :

    10 , 16 , 9 , 12

    (that means that the macedonians have better cav then the perisns and medians )

    ABOUT ARCHERS :

    1.persian (who should be the best) :
    8 , 9 , 1 , 5

    2.medians :
    8 , 10 , 1 , 5

    3.lydians :

    8 , 10 , 3 , 6

    (ironicaly the lydians also have the best archers in the game)

    4.bobylonians heavy archers :

    8 , 15 , 2 , 6

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    now I want to know that are they fine like that or are you guys going to change this (balancing or else) ?????????

    please respond and please don't post that the persians weren't the best archers or the medians weren't the best cavelary men cause they are also mentioned in ROP unit text I will try to post that IF any 1 disagree with that.

    but first please tell me if their going to change or not ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Blatta Optima Maxima View Post
    So you have reached the "NANANANANA I AM NOT LIZTENING, YOU ARE WRONG" phase. Just a couple of posts back you were bragging about how the Persians lost because of their inferiority, now you're saying you don't care?
    BOM to Kakabis
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=484498
    my AAR, please check it out

  2. #2
    Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze's Avatar Occasio mihi fertur
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    Default Re: balancing factions streng .

    Give us concrete arguments and sources with which you can prove that the Medians had the best cavalry (Lydians had, according to the stories) and the Persians the best archers (everyone in the area had good archers, except the Greeks). I said we were going to rebalance, I can't say more than that atm.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze View Post
    and the Persians the best archers (everyone in the area had good archers, except the Greeks).
    the only once who were trained from childhood were the persians , the elemits though are discrived to be very good as well but it can only be elemit AOR .

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Historically, the Iranian plateau has always bolstered a fine archery tradition where the rugged environment encouraged skills in using missile weaponry. During all four native Iranian dynasties of Iran, archery has always been valued, however prior to the great Iranian migrations, peoples such as the Elamites were lauded for their archery skills, especially by the conquering Assyrians who had faced them in battle. The Elamite skills did not wane by the destruction of their kingdom, but survived well into the Neo-Elamite era where they established connections with the Persians and the Medes. During the Achaemenid era, the Elamites were accorded a position of honour as skilled archers, even though they were not allowed to either bear the akinākā, a gilded short sword, or to enlist as the Ānūsīyā, or the 10,000 Immortals. As a result, archery was in general a praised practice, something not exclusive to the Iranians among who the Achaemenians added it as one of their three virtues, but to the native peoples who lived there as well. The Achaemenid military organization was clearly made to facilitate archery, where a satābam, or one hundred men, would mainly consist of archers who from the second rank (As the first rank consisted of spearmen who formed a defensive wall with the spārā which in turn a decorated pavise of wicker) would continuously increment the angle, to the tenth rank. This would require a great discipline and a good number of junior officers, also ranked accordingly in a decimal manner to coordinate the formation properly. The wicker shields would be vital in outlasting the enemies in volley exchanges, but individual additions of armour facilitated this effect as well.


    as for persian being the best the link below have plenty sources :

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=467172

    as you can see there also a ROP source

    Give us concrete arguments and sources with which you can prove that the Medians had the best cavalry (Lydians had, according to the stories)
    The cavalry of the Arizanti are the flower of the Median military. They ride the most meticulously bred Nisean steeds in all of Iran and can afford the finest equipment. On top of their excellent armament their extensive experience and training in cavalry tactics make them incredibly formidable warriors. These soldiers represent the finest evolution of the Iranian fighting art. They can be commited to charge with their spears at critical formations of enemy cavalry or in devastating flanking maneuvers.
    The landed gentry of the Strukhat clan go to war mounted atop the finest steeds in all the world. The Nisean horses are massive creatures bred extensively to carry armoured riders into battle. The Strukhatian nobility take greater care to protect themselves since they eschew shields as too cumbersome on horseback. As such they wear a cuirass of Iron scales and a bronze helmet to turn aside blows in close combat. They carry two javelins to throw into enemy ranks before closing in for the kill with their swords. These horsemen can be used to neutralise enemy cavalry or harass enemy infantry but should not be sacrificed on the spears of heavy infantry.
    oh yeah a ROP unit text it doesn't says that they were the best in the whole world but it say that they were one of the best .

    History: Median cavalry were the best skirmishing cavalry
    trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/Civ%3A_Persians

    the medians were used for centuries even at the selucid times.

    and the nisean steed as you guys pointed your self were a heavy boned and large horse.

    And the Median cavalry, which is of all the best, will join you in the war
    books.google.com/books?id=GGMZAAAAYAAJ

    Quote Originally Posted by Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze View Post
    (Lydians had, according to the stories)
    explain the macedonians and tarentine cav that are so strong the tarentines cav is stornger then the easterns cav wich is wierd.

    so is the macedonian hetairoi........... what the greeks have the best infantry AND the best cavalry ???????????????
    Last edited by Hesus de bodemloze; August 27, 2011 at 04:16 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blatta Optima Maxima View Post
    So you have reached the "NANANANANA I AM NOT LIZTENING, YOU ARE WRONG" phase. Just a couple of posts back you were bragging about how the Persians lost because of their inferiority, now you're saying you don't care?
    BOM to Kakabis
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=484498
    my AAR, please check it out

  4. #4
    Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze's Avatar Occasio mihi fertur
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    Default Re: balancing factions streng .

    ^So you're saying that by the fact that the Macedonians have the strongest cavalry, the Greeks have the strongest cavalry and infantry? Macedonia wasn't "Greek" yet in the sense of having a hellenised culture. They might've been a Greek (speaking) tribe, I won't deny that, but they don't have any other advantages of the Greeks.

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    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: balancing factions streng .

    Quote Originally Posted by Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze View Post
    everyone in the area had good archers, except the Greeks
    Bull (literally ), the Cretans were the best archers in the world. Plus the Macedonians and Thessalians were the best cavalry in the world and the Greek hoplites were the best infantry in the world.

  6. #6
    Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze's Avatar Occasio mihi fertur
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    Default Re: balancing factions streng .

    ^Exception rather than the norm. Please, you're not helping here. You know very well what I mean.
    And I'd argue that the Cretans were not that much (if at all) better than their Eastern equivalents. Equal at best, perhaps.

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    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: balancing factions streng .

    Herodotus quite explicitely states they were the best, plus, being Greeks, they weren't utterly useless in melee either. Barring those, Syrians, Scythians and Indians were better as well.

  8. #8
    Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze's Avatar Occasio mihi fertur
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    Default Re: balancing factions streng .

    Herodotus quite explicitely states they were the best
    Now you're just trolling

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    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: balancing factions streng .

    Quote Originally Posted by Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze View Post
    Now you're just trolling
    No, he really does say that. I remember reading a quote of that somewhere. And we really have no reason not to believe him.

    Actually, archers were pretty much useless against armored opponents, since while a later Parthian bow might shoot right through both bronze cuirasses and iron mail, Achaemenids used short self bows, which had close to no penetrative power. Oh, and the Cretans had composite bows. Case closed, moving on.
    Last edited by Blatta Optima Maxima; August 23, 2011 at 12:59 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: balancing factions streng .

    Here is a EDU that I started off of pirates_say_arrgg's Greek tune ups, and Cockroaches ideas on shield value. I also lowered moral on most units and made general's units weaker.(Faster paced battles, and relaying more on general's experience) Also, I have set the hoplites to be 8 ranks deep. With lower armor values and higher shield values, hoplites aren't as strong as they were in the original mod, and can be taken out easily by missiles from behind. Cavalry charges and flanks also play a key role in fighting as hoplites or fighting against them. Feed back is welcomed

    edit- you might want to download the pirates' export_units as well, since my edu has his helot changes

  11. #11
    Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze's Avatar Occasio mihi fertur
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    Default Re: balancing factions streng .

    No, he really does say that. I remember reading a quote of that somewhere. And we really have no reason not to believe him.
    I know, I know, but back in your Persian-worshipping phase, you said Herodotus was a Greek and thus anything he wrote about the Greeks would be more or less propaganda. Hearing this from your mouth now makes you unbelievable at best.

    @TriremeTrierach:
    Great! I'll have a look at it. We might be able to incorporate some of it in v3. Credit will be given where due, of course.

  12. #12
    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: balancing factions streng .

    Quote Originally Posted by Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze View Post
    I know, I know, but back in your Persian-worshipping phase, you said Herodotus was a Greek and thus anything he wrote about the Greeks would be more or less propaganda. Hearing this from your mouth now makes you unbelievable at best.
    It does not. I had not really lied my eyes on Herodotus' writing. Sure, he is not to be relied on when it comes to numbers sometimes, but overall he's a good source. I don't see why he should lie about Cretans being better, since that's not hard to believe. Remember that Cretans were very sought after mercenaries (like the Syrians and Scythians), unlike the Persians. Actually, noone ever used any kind of Persian mercenaries!


    ETA: Remember that after the Greek wars the archer-spearmen Satabam (sparabara + thanvrabara) was discontinued.
    Last edited by Blatta Optima Maxima; August 23, 2011 at 02:02 PM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: balancing factions streng .

    Quote Originally Posted by Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze View Post
    ^So you're saying that by the fact that the Macedonians have the strongest cavalry, the Greeks have the strongest cavalry and infantry? Macedonia wasn't "Greek" yet in the sense of having a hellenised culture. They might've been a Greek (speaking) tribe, I won't deny that, but they don't have any other advantages of the Greeks.
    and just like that you ignored the rest of the discussion the tarentines weren't greeks ????????????? the macedonians though don't have as good infantry as the greeks but for the tarentines it's a different story

    Quote Originally Posted by Cocroach the great View Post
    Bull (literally ), the Cretans were the best archers in the world. Plus the Macedonians and Thessalians were the best cavalry in the world and the Greek hoplites were the best infantry in the world.
    I don't belive cretans were the best , yes they were good but still not the best the persians,turks,japanese were the best.

    the syrians were noted for their skill ever since the assyrians time but they are still not the best

    Quote Originally Posted by Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze View Post
    I know, I know, but back in your Persian-worshipping phase, you said Herodotus was a Greek and thus anything he wrote about the Greeks would be more or less propaganda. Hearing this from your mouth now makes you unbelievable at best.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cocroach the great View Post
    Herodotus quite explicitely states they were the best, plus, being Greeks, they weren't utterly useless in melee either. Barring those, Syrians, Scythians and Indians were better as well.
    herodotus in his book history in nine books : I write what I have heard but there is not reason for me to belive it .

    herodotus is a good historian if we leave the facts that :

    1.well he was a greek and weren't happy about the persians overlords

    2.as I said above he mostly writes what he had heard , the best example is his disribtion about the battle of thermopeal I mean come on 300 spartans against 2,500,000 persian
    Last edited by Hesus de bodemloze; August 27, 2011 at 04:19 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blatta Optima Maxima View Post
    So you have reached the "NANANANANA I AM NOT LIZTENING, YOU ARE WRONG" phase. Just a couple of posts back you were bragging about how the Persians lost because of their inferiority, now you're saying you don't care?
    BOM to Kakabis
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=484498
    my AAR, please check it out

  14. #14
    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: balancing factions streng .

    Persian overlords? What? Herodotus was Ionian Greek, neutral, not some slave.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocroach the great View Post
    It does not. I had not really lied my eyes on Herodotus' writing. Sure, he is not to be relied on when it comes to numbers sometimes, but overall he's a good source. I don't see why he should lie about Cretans being better, since that's not hard to believe. Remember that Cretans were very sought after mercenaries (like the Syrians and Scythians), unlike the Persians. Actually, noone ever used any kind of Persian mercenaries!


    ETA: Remember that after the Greek wars the archer-spearmen Satabam (sparabara + thanvrabara) was discontinued.
    dude why should persians exactly serve as mercenerys ????????

    they kinda did fight for the selucids though not as a mercenary.

    the cretans lived as mercenarys cause that was their life and traditional like the hyrcanians as far as I know they have served in many many MANY different nations armys as mercenarys and you can't say that the hyrcanians were the best worriors just because they were used as mercenaries right ? in this case I don't remmember that spartans ever served any nation as mercenaries does that mean that they were weeker then the hyrcanians ?????????

    I waiting for your respond

    Quote Originally Posted by Cocroach the great View Post
    Persian overlords? What? Herodotus was Ionian Greek, neutral, not some slave.
    his city was ruled by the persians and don't pretend that you don't know that
    Last edited by Hesus de bodemloze; August 27, 2011 at 04:21 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blatta Optima Maxima View Post
    So you have reached the "NANANANANA I AM NOT LIZTENING, YOU ARE WRONG" phase. Just a couple of posts back you were bragging about how the Persians lost because of their inferiority, now you're saying you don't care?
    BOM to Kakabis
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=484498
    my AAR, please check it out

  16. #16
    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: balancing factions streng .

    Ok, I was wrong, he wad born just inside Persian vassal territory, but you have to remember the empire was based on tributes. The king had no authority over Caria, it was independent as long as it paid its annual tribute.

    Why serve as mercenaries? Every nation produced some as long as there was someone who wanted them. Yet noone ever hired Persian mercenaries.

  17. #17

    Default Re: balancing factions streng .

    first of all it's great to see that you man enough to admit that you were wrong .

    second of all about mercenaries I like to know in wich time frame you are talking about well you propeply don't mean the achamanid and sassanid times since well at the time their rather fight and die for their own empire then the others, part of why cyrus revolted against medians .

    and if you think about it mercenaries fight when ever they need the mony if your empire is rich enough why not fight for your own people fighting wasn't the only way for making mony

    in the time of medians the persians as a vassel state were used as mercenaries though I don't know if the medians payed them any mony or they foght for media is a diuty.

    in the time of the selucids the persians were used in their armys and you know that .

    in the time of parthian though I don't know if persians were used as well or not .
    Quote Originally Posted by Blatta Optima Maxima View Post
    So you have reached the "NANANANANA I AM NOT LIZTENING, YOU ARE WRONG" phase. Just a couple of posts back you were bragging about how the Persians lost because of their inferiority, now you're saying you don't care?
    BOM to Kakabis
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=484498
    my AAR, please check it out

  18. #18
    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: balancing factions streng .

    BS. Even Athenians served as mercenaries, and Athens was by far the best place for a commoner to live in in the ancient world. If Persians were good at something, someone would no doubt have bought their services. Yet even after they lost their "empire" (more like a nominal tributary confederation), noone used them as troops, until the Sassanid Persians usurped the Parthian empire. Even then only about 1/5 of their core troops were Persian (the cavalry provided by the royal house itself - the rest of the houses were Parthian, as were their troops).

  19. #19

    Default Re: balancing factions streng .

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Cocroach the great View Post
    BS. Even Athenians served as mercenaries,
    source!

    and Athens was by far the best place for a commoner to live in in the ancient world
    I disagree cause ....well....I don't know what the commoner means

    . If Persians were good at something, someone would no doubt have bought their services.
    did you even read my link that I posted for bull ?

    the persian were the best archers .

    Yet even after they lost their "empire" (more like a nominal tributary confederation), noone used them as troops
    wrong the selucids used them as troops so did the medians donno about the parthians

    , until the Sassanid Persians usurped the Parthian empire. Even then only about 1/5 of their core troops were Persian (the cavalry provided by the royal house itself - the rest of the houses were Parthian, as were their troops).
    source!
    Quote Originally Posted by Blatta Optima Maxima View Post
    So you have reached the "NANANANANA I AM NOT LIZTENING, YOU ARE WRONG" phase. Just a couple of posts back you were bragging about how the Persians lost because of their inferiority, now you're saying you don't care?
    BOM to Kakabis
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=484498
    my AAR, please check it out

  20. #20
    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: balancing factions streng .

    1.You are asking for a source that Athenians served as mercenaries? Ever heard of ing XENOPHON??? ;
    2. A commoner is someone who is not a noble;
    3. Bull. I demand a source for that, from a site not called "irangreatestforever.com" or something;
    4. Sources, please. Seleucids relied on Greek/Macedonian settlers/mercenaries for infantry, Syrians for archers and Macedonians for cavalry.;
    5. Read up on the Sassanid military organization. There were 7 great clans, 6 Parthian and one Persian (house Sassan), that ruled the "empire". They were mostly independent, each responsible for their own army, bereaucracy, taxes, etc., while all owed allegiance to the king and his clan, and paid tribute to him. Cavalry was raised from the members of these clans, and their retainers from lesser clans. So Sassanid feudal cavalry was mostly Parthian. There were also mercenaries from Alans, Sughdians and Arabs, but I didn't count those. There were also mercenaries from the barbarian regions of the empire, and serf conscripts from all regions of the kingdom, but those were only pressed into service when a campaign was being planned with lots of sieges in mind.

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