Is Shogun2 the most poorly balanced TW yet?

[-JEDI-Deathstar]

Let's see...

A large number of obsolete units,
overpowered DLC units,
almost game breaking retainers,
matchlock Ashigaru which rape highly armoured units at a fraction of the cost and don't cause friendly fire,
peasant swords which rape samurais yet are cheaper,
new players are severly handicapped against 10 stars,
the list goes on...

P.S CA have pretty much admitted they ed the balancing up by nerfing lots of units e.g nag monks and heavy guns and introducing unit caps. lmfao

[spicykorean]

you don't need a poll to find the answer for this.

[i came from outerspace]

i know everyone idolized rome total war. But you should actually go back and play it. Rome TW was completely unbalanced. Shogun 2 is the best game yet in all ways. It just turns out everyone likes to constantly whine and moan. And as the fanbase gets bigger on a game that is getting increasingly better we also hear even more whining and moaning.

[Texo123]

its my first TW game ever, so i cant compare it to other tw games...

but i started pretty late with shogun 2 mp... and i faced 10 stars like 90% of my matches...
... and fought my way up into the top 300-500 with a win percentage between 70-75 ... without any dlc ... without cheesing... with balanced Samurai armys ... and mostly Katana core...

the balancing isnt that bad... i had no problem as 1-2 star playing against 10 stars... aswell as i dont see any advantages using dlc retainers...


Matchlocks cause alot of friendly fire... what they dont cause is moral penality to friendly units..
the unit infront of your matchlocks will get the same casualties as the unit you shoot at 40+ range ...
but the prob is... they shoot through 4 lines of men without clear side... friendly fire should be higher ... aswell as moral penality for friendly units and make it freakin high for shooting your own men into the back!!!
you should get absolutely punished for poor positioning of your matchlocks...
thats all that bugs me about the game...


Peasant swords dont rape Katana samis if upgraded the same... they are just more costeffective
its a matter of game style...

new players are only handycapped because they have no clue what they are doing...
- eating arrows all day from a bow cav unit that gets it ammo restored at the bow dojo, and they are still not moving from the open field, standing still and eating...
- running 4 bow ashigaru 1 naginata hero monk and getting their gen killed in a charge into a Light cav and getting their army routed by a light cav unit
- rushing/attacking uphill
etc....

guys... read... play legendary mode... and watch mp battle commentaries... and they wont do such a ...
most 1 stars dont even know that their biggest advantage vs 10 stars is bringing numbers ...
if they knew it they wouldnt run nagi monk hero + warrior nuns and getting themself outnumbered...

the only advantage 10 stars have = experience and understanding of the game = normal and in every other game present ----> the more you play the better you get !


etc ...

[Marshal Ney]

well considering the volley of 1 shimzau heavy gunner can wipe out a general in 1 volley, ill say its unbal... but obviously the game neeeds some seerrrrious tuning orj ust make a better game, not a fan of this multi i miss classic gamespy type battles like emprie rome medeival and the others had.

[AlfonsoVIII]

A large number of obsolete units,
overpowered DLC units,
almost game breaking retainers,
matchlock Ashigaru which rape highly armoured units at a fraction of the cost and don't cause friendly fire,
peasant swords which rape samurais yet are cheaper,
new players are severly handicapped against 10 stars,


obsolete units? which ones, almost all units have a niche roll in the game.
have the DLC units are worthless, warrior nuns, naginata warrior monk hero, etc
retainers cannot break the game, pretending to think their game breaking means you are in denial of your army setup
matchlock ashigaru cause friendly fire
if you use the sword peasents correctly yes, but every unit fails if not used correctly.
new players dont have the skill to beat 10 starts consistently, the game does not make level 1 vs level 10 always an easy battle.

[El Cid99]

This game is definately balanced compared to, say, M2TW. In M2 elephants beat pretty much everything, so the first person to click "Timurids" pretty much wins automatically. Also, cavalry in M2 is waaaaaayyy OP.

I have no problems beating high lvl players. I'm a lvl 4 now and can beat my lvl 7 friend easily. In my first game, I beat a lvl 7. The only advantage high ranked players could possibly have is, as has already been said, experience and more troops to choose from.

DLC units aren't OP in my experience. Heavy gunners get trampled by cav pretty quickly. All DLC does is provides a bit of diversity. Admittedly, a full stack of Sengoku Jidai DLC troops would be hard to beat, but the unit cap makes them no more OP than other units.

[Tyler_the_Great]

Let's see...

A large number of obsolete units,
overpowered DLC units,
almost game breaking retainers,
matchlock Ashigaru which rape highly armoured units at a fraction of the cost and don't cause friendly fire,
peasant swords which rape samurais yet are cheaper,
new players are severly handicapped against 10 stars,
the list goes on...

P.S CA have pretty much admitted they ed the balancing up by nerfing lots of units e.g nag monks and heavy guns and introducing unit caps. lmfao

what units are obsolete? most serve a purpose depending on ones play style.


DLC has always been "overpowered". It was far worse in empire then in shogun2 though.

Matchlocks cause massive friendly fire casualties.

loan swords can be pretty powerful but are very easy to rout with a single cav change in their back(even alight cav behind them will mass rout 5-6 of then easily.

the Match Made is semi broken, level 1-7 guys should not be facing level 10 players. So that should be fixed to stop noob rapings.

And CA as always balanced every total war game with unit changes and prices. They never can quite get it right on release.

edit, I see alphy and a few others already beat me too it. + rep to each of you..

[Ashu-Siralis]

Erm...is someone forgetting gold/gold urbans?

[-JEDI-Deathstar]

Erm...is someone forgetting gold/gold urbans?

Urbans are not overpowered, sure they will kill any enemy inf but they get raped by heavy cav and chariots and unless your opponent is using carthage, greece or a minor barb faction you can't be certain that they'll bring a sizeable infantry force. Rome is great at killing phalanx factions, not so great vs eastern skirmish and cataphract factions.

[bushranger]

i wouldnt say it's the most unbalanced,you see more builds then in ntw.But saying that even with all the retainers and up grades there is still to few viable tactics that can be used if you want a good win rate.Really you would need atleast 5 rules in loby to open up the choice of tactics that can be used and give balanced builds a chance.

Just a couple of balance issues i have with the game are the archer/matchlock balance,unless your playing avatar and have some elite bow monks i dont see any point in bringing bows over matchlocks.The second in the speed of inf and cav which makes the cav/inf bum rush a much stronger and easier strat then the balanced static strat.

Also i think the whole rock paper scissors approach makes things feel more unbalanced then they really are,say you bring the wrong type of build like say a cav heavy one against a spear heavy one your stuffed from the start,where's in ntw/etw most inf had a counter to cav if you played well enough,not just choose the right units at the start.

[Evan MF]

Most other Total War games were imbalanced but the community actually established rules to deal with the imbalances online. Matchmaking doesn't allow that because there is no host of the game who can designate them so its in fact impossible for the community to make their own adjustments and that's why this game seems so imbalanced. CA really need to get the balancing perfect.

Evan

[i came from outerspace]

Most other Total War games were imbalanced but the community actually established rules to deal with the imbalances online. Matchmaking doesn't allow that because there is no host of the game who can designate them so its in fact impossible for the community to make their own adjustments and that's why this game seems so imbalanced. CA really need to get the balancing perfect.

Evan

thats one of the things I like about shgoun 2. I hate joining games with "rules". the only rule in shogun 2 is the first one to route the other army wins..

When a host has a rule like "no more than x sword units" or "no arty" then obviously they just have some kind of cheese army the works for everything except for against a sword core., and it'll probaly be on a map that works best for what army they have.

[bushranger]

thats one of the things I like about shgoun 2. I hate joining games with "rules". the only rule in shogun 2 is the first one to route the other army wins..

When a host has a rule like "no more than x sword units" or "no arty" then obviously they just have some kind of cheese army the works for everything except for against a sword core., and it'll probaly be on a map that works best for what army they have.

Rubbish.You get standard rules which develop like 5 light max in ntw because without it your forced to fight a certain way,it takes away from the amount of tactics and builds that you can use with out the rule.There is some cheeseballs out there that will have stupid rules to give them selves a advantage,there was a guy in ntw that would have a no cav rule then have a army of prussin lights fo instance but these guys are few and easy to spot.

With how lackluster CA are with balance rules are nearly a must have for me to make it a enjoyable game.

[eXistenZ]

ashigaru units are indeed overpowered in MP

[AlfonsoVIII]

ashigaru units are indeed overpowered in MP

what is funny that between katana samurai and loan swords, their stats are scaled except for attack and unit size, aint that messed up. if they made LS base attack half of kat sams, there would be no issue.

[Texo123]

@eXistenZ

what?


yari ashis = attack, dangerous only if 15 + units + hold firm...you will see this 1/1000 matches
bow ashis = suck if not upgraded, if upgraded = same stats as vanilla bow samis (exept for
ammo/moral/attack etc.)

Matchlock Ashigaru = the most balanced matchlock unit out there in terms of reload/acc

Loanswords = not OP, to costeffective, ... thats a huge difference

the game isnt that far from being balanced...only a few tweaks needed ... peasants shouldnt get the same bonus trough skillpoints like their elite version.. and matchlock mechanic needs to be overworked... thats all

you have for every unit a counter ...

sword > spear
bow > matchlock
Cav > non spear infantry

etc...

and your are even able to win fights you probably shoudlnt win... if you use units wise

normally Katana cav < spears
but
Katana cav dismounted > spears

yari cav < Great Guard
yari cav dismounted > Great Guard

and so on

OP means ...owning like... everything ...so god damn badly ...without having any drawbacks ...that you have to run the same in order to survive

you dont have...

[ckd]

Loanswords = not OP, to costeffective, ... thats a huge difference


OP means ...owning like... everything ...so god damn badly ...without having any drawbacks ...that you have to run the same in order to survive

How is too cost effective different from overpowered? It's just silly semantics, lol. Think about it, if a unit can perform above and beyond its cost, it is "overpowered" because it is more powerful than it should be (as dictated by cost).

The type of OP you refer to, "owning like... everything ...so god damn badly ...without having any drawbacks," well that's in that case a unit is just goddamn broken.

[i came from outerspace]

i think part of the reason of all the complaining is no one can agree on terminology.

For instance I consider a "cheese" move to be something that is irregular and supposed to catch you off guard, and because youre caught off guard you have trouble maintaing your army. There's nothing wrong with using a "cheesy" strategy, just a cheese general doesn't work against skilled players (eg bringing all cav against a skilled player is not going to work)

"Overpowered" to me means the unit doesn't have sufficient draw backs to make up for all it's advantages

"broken" to me means a bug or an exploit causes a unit to perform better or worse than intended.

[spicykorean]

what is funny that between katana samurai and loan swords, their stats are scaled except for attack and unit size, aint that messed up. if they made LS base attack half of kat sams, there would be no issue.

The issue is that per koku spent, you get more from each upgrade to loansword than kat samurai.

The same applies to retainers that give flat stat increases, you get more koku equivalent retainer boosts to your loanswords than samurai.

I really liked an idea put forward somewhere in this forum about disabling veterancy and upgrades for ashigaru units.
Just allowing upgrades to samurai and monks would make these units truly elite while ashigaru units can truly be fodder/filler units.