About the early Cavalry

[danova]

Yep, your right. I did some research, I was under the impression native Icelandic people did exist, but apparently evidence doesnt support that. Im still not so sure about monks charging vikings in robes and with wooden crosses, perhaps simply leaving the settlements ungarrisoned would be best. The monks are destroyed so easily by pretty much any unit, adding more monk regiments would be even worse, so empty settlements might be the best way to solve the problem.

empty settlements not to be good solution, the monk is better. Please think that you rob monks...

Cavarly are quite underpowered...

I think the more better cavalry would not be realistic ... do not forget, in this era dosn't use the stirrup because the horsemen almost was only a mounted warrior! This is not the 11th - 13th cavalry from the medieval with high charge!
... despite/but i'm opened for the bit strenghtening!

(... Btw, we added higher HP and stat for the frankish cavalry and higher to the Norman (late norman), then to the others (saxons, celtic, nordish culture, etc.)

... and the EDU still has tons of referances to vanilla material that shouldnt be there.

Why is it a problem that we leave the original vanilla reference in the EDU for you?

I appologise, after I finished writing I did notice how overly harsh it was. The mod is truely wonderful in most aspects, the units are incredible, the map is on the whole, very well done, its one of the few mods with completely new buildings across the board, and it has a wonderful historical approach to things, I do enjoy it very very much.

Thanks your kind words! (realy, i'm not cynical)
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[ninja51]

Every vanilla unit still being in there makes it quite a to find the units this mod actually uses, its pointless clutter. Pointless clutter is never a "good" thing.

I understand cavalry in this age wern't the "clad in plate champions". What I mean is they dont even behave realisticly as any type of cavalry they're so underpowered. A full on charge from Frankish knights results in about 9 enemies dieing, then it breaks into a melee. There isnt any sort of weight or power behind cavalry, I use the words "slightly faster-moving crap infantry" because that's what they behave like. Cavalry even in this age had power, they moved quickly, had a devistating charge. They were rare, but an incredibly fearsome force. Cavalry should act as cavalry, currently they dont. The charge is the biggest issue with it, being better fighters in a melee makes them even more like infantry, its the charge that must be properly changed.

[danova]

A full on charge from Frankish knights results in about 9 enemies dieing, then it breaks into a melee.

I think this number is good results for in this epoch.

They were rare, but an incredibly fearsome force.

This is medieval concept, with stirrup, with new lance poise and bigger horses! ... but not in this epoch and saxon, celtic area.
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[Heathen Storm]

Actually, in this era all heavy cavalry used spears as javelins. They did not have the proper equipment of a true "couched" lance so they could not charge headlong into a mass of infantry. So I would recommend changing all heavy cavalry units to having javelins, except possibly bodyguard units which could use an overhead spear animation.

[ninja51]

Couching the lance isnt really the problem, its the horses that arnt taken into account. Even though they arnt the biggest horses, the mass of them isnt taken into account at all. Thats what I mean by the charge, regardless of what the men do, the horse's mass and power does not come across ingame at all

[Heathen Storm]

Couching the lance isnt really the problem, its the horses that arnt taken into account. Even though they arnt the biggest horses, the mass of them isnt taken into account at all. Thats what I mean by the charge, regardless of what the men do, the horse's mass and power does not come across ingame at all

What you describe is mainly due to the couched lance technique. Putting that mass into the point of a spear increases the power of the charge, therefore increasing the kills. Now cavalry in this age would not charge headlong into infantry because they did not have a point to focus on. The Cavalry of this period threw javelins, and then when the infantry was broken they would run in between them and pick them off with swords. Therefore eliminating a powerful charge.

[danova]

What you describe is mainly due to the couched lance technique. Putting that mass into the point of a spear increases the power of the charge, therefore increasing the kills. Now cavalry in this age would not charge headlong into infantry because they did not have a point to focus on. The Cavalry of this period threw javelins, and then when the infantry was broken they would run in between them and pick them off with swords. Therefore eliminating a powerful charge.

Yes, excatly!
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[Himster]

What about Frankish heavy cavalry and later Norman knights?
The important question with regard to the campaigns of Charles Martel, and the later Carolingians, was their development and use of heavy cavalry. This question is not just relevant to the development of Western European warfare but also on the process by which feudalism came to be dominant in politics, economics and military organization, so it's not an easy topic to come to a conclusion on.

[ninja51]

ninja51 i dont understand why your cavalry is weak, my saxon cav was down to 13 men and i charged a large unit of 150 ceorl archers and managed to take out a large proportion of them (around 20 or sometimes a bit less or a bit more), even when i charge huscarls, thegns etc i can still take out a good amount of them which is usually 10 soldiers. Have you ever used the hammer and anvil tactic? if you havnt then be aware that the enemy will turn around and charge you at the last second.

The hammer and anvil is my bread and butter

Maybe thats my biggest problem with the cavalry, none of them can effectivly charge so the hammer and anvil dosnt work.

Giving them javalins is a good idea, make them more light cavalry outfitted instead of very poor quality heavy cavalry.

My complaint still does stand for the Normans and Frankish cavalry though, they were more charge centric.

[Heathen Storm]

My complaint still does stand for the Normans and Frankish cavalry though, they were more charge centric.

No, they were not. Their "knights" were the creators of the javelin and sword technique. The Normans used this same tactic at the battle of hastings. The Norman knights would either throw their spears into the enemy, or would run along the shield wall and stab at openings. They did not adopt the charge technique until they had created an empire in Italy and were battling the Lombards. The reason for this is because their javelins technique didn't work well against the much heavier Langobardi Cataphracts.

What about Frankish heavy cavalry and later Norman knights?
The important question with regard to the campaigns of Charles Martel, and the later Carolingians, was their development and use of heavy cavalry. This question is not just relevant to the development of Western European warfare but also on the process by which feudalism came to be dominant in politics, economics and military organization, so it's not an easy topic to come to a conclusion on.

After the Norman Invasion of Italy (And england) then both Normans and Franks began using a couched lance technique. But any "heavy cavalry" of this day are much different then the heavy cavalry of the later periods. They were called heavy cavalry because they were covered in heavy armor, and wielded very powerful and heavy weapons like a spear and sword. Usually they would throw those spears; but if the need had arisen to fight hand to hand with the spear, it was used by thrusting - either over- or under-handed.
(All of this information is coming from the Osprey texts of "Men at Arms: The Age of Charlemagne" and "Warriors: The Norman Knight 950-1204")

[ninja51]

At Hastings the cavalry did not skirmish, it is one of the more famous instances of a full on cavalry charge. Granted heavy losses ensued for the Normans, but they did not dance around the shield wall at all.

I will grant though, the cavalry charge wasn't redeveloped fully untill the 11th century, but the redevelopments did start in the 7th century. While what you are saying is inaccurate according to the sources i'm reading, the idea that cavalry shouldn't really be terribly good at charging is a valid arguement. I believe though still, in regards to game balance, late period units, and in my opinion, history, certain types of cavalry should be made to be useful charging units. The other types should be made useful by making them more skirmish centric, currently cavalry on the whole arn't good at really anything.

[danova]

I moved these posts to here ...

[Himster]

I tested the norman knights: they seem pretty decent to me.
I have played the frnkish cav a few times, so far their charges have been almost futile, but they defiitely seem to be tougher than pretty much all other cavalry, so that makes sense.

Pretty good job I think, now if only Ireland could be able to recruit it's cavalry before the campaign ends I'd be so happy I could cry.

[Heathen Storm]

Danova, I think to really effectively show the use of heavy cavalry you should give them one, maybe two javelins and make them quite powerful, to show how deadly a thrown spear could be. That would be the truly historical and most appeasing way to solve the problem. I could test it out if you want? It really wouldn't take me a very long time to do.

EDIT: Danova, I HIGHLY recommend doing this. I tested before the change with the Carolingian Milites, and got between 5 and 10 kills per charge (against a unit of Sciptoflan). I changed them to having a javelin, ammunition of 2 and missile of 15. As my knights charged down the hill towards the Saxons, as soon as they were in range they made a quick stop, and threw their javelins. Every test, between 10 and 20 Saxons fell with each volley. So I would recommend giving them 1 or 2 ammunition, with a missile attack of say, 10 or 12 and increasing their sword attack. Obviously they didn't do so well when they charged in, but as I found through more testing, they work at their best when another unit engages the enemy and they can hit them in a weak spot. Very powerful, very useful.

I also tested a battle against the AI Franks (in custom), gave them two units of those Milites and when they hit my shieldwall with those javelins, I was shocked. Close to 10 of my warriors fell each time. I really like this change!

[Cyclone_04]

The Welsh Dumonian cavalry is perfect when used properly. Use them for mobility to chase down fleeing enemies, scattering archers and overwhelm straggling units. If it is historically accurate it would help to have a couple of javelins.

[Heathen Storm]

The Welsh Dumonian cavalry is perfect when used properly. Use them for mobility to chase down fleeing enemies, scattering archers and overwhelm straggling units. If it is historically accurate it would help to have a couple of javelins.

I'm really not sure about the Welsh. My area of understanding is with the European warfare - i know next to nothing about Celtic/Brythonic

[Captain Zoran]

Sorry for necro'ing, but I think I'd voice my opinion aswell.

As far as I can recall of my studies of "viking era" (that is to say, 8-11 century), cavalry was quite commonly used, alas not quite as the "hammers" that we are accustomed to of the Total War games. I belive Heathen Storm got it right about the Frankish/Norman knights (I read "Warriors: The Norman Knight 950-1204" a long time ago) armament and technique, but the fact is that "heavy cavalry" did not really exist in this era and area as far as I can tell. The idea of an massed cavalry charge destroying an infantry formation was at this time not really implemented, other than a few examples from frankish battles. This is mainly due to the "couched lance technique" not being invented yet, but also due to the infantry focus of this era.

As I stated in the beginning, cavalry was used quite alot by the different cultures in this area and era, but not for an definite role on the battlefield. As it is stated on many of the cavarly units in this mod, cavalry was used for scattering archers and chasing down fleeing enemies. Large forces of cavalry was used also alot to scout and skirmish ahead of the main hosts, and most importantly, foraging for the troops. A common saying is that Northmen/"Vikings" rode to the battle, then to dismount and meet the enemy on foot. Also, the atypical infantry battleformation of this time was the "skjaldborg" or "shield wall", which in principle worked as the old phalanx formations. The ahorsed forces of this time lacked the means of penetrating the deep and heavy formations, as long as the infantry stayed in formation. Once the formation is broken, then cavalry forces could do some damage in melee, but not otherwise.

With the addition of Heathen Storm's suggestion for javelins and stronger melee attack (that is to say, for the frankish/norman cavalry, I cannot speak for the mounted gaelics, who favoured light skirmishers ahorse as far as I can tell), I think it would portray this era's use of cavalry quite well.

[Celtichugs123]

The Picts where noted as to ride 'short stocky' horses (or perhaps ponies) - however I'm not sure they were ever used in combat, but merely as scouts.

[Heathen Storm]

I would like to announce my new submod, the "Not-so-heavy-cavalry" submod, aimed at this exact problem.

[Cincinatus]

There is something confusing about all this stat wise. In the infantry stats, the higher later units, are not effective against armor, but have sightly higher defense and attack numbers. The cavalry forces are partly, the reverse, the effective against armor higher tier horse units have lower attack while the earlier horse units have higher attack and are not effective against armor.

There was a rome total war mod, that did this very thing with norman cavalry, BUT, somehow they made all the saxon units including the best infantry, huskarls, weak against them, even in melee and well outnumbered in one part of the battle with good heavy infantry versus norman horse. How would the huskarls or any fyrd or spearmen have a chance in any battle if even when stuck in melee, and well outnumbered by the best troops, the horsemen slaughter them wholesale? That is a nice looking mod but they clearly made all the saxon units well under powered. I would think even a mentally challenged gibbon monkey could beat the saxons as the normans in that mod. I found the same problem oddly with the trojan war mod, before areistra, with the myceneans going from strong in a previous version too little more than peasant cannon fodder to any units in the update. That being said, something like that cavalry force could be used in this mod. They were heavy horse, javelin throwers. Would all the norman horsemen be sword wielding only? Would lighter horse be the same sized units? Only the magyars and the irish factions have different sized units.

This would bring up the obvious, would the horsemen have much of a charge at all before 1066? Would they fair well in melee and not charging? Or should they be skirmishers and avoid other units while throwing javelins?

I like the mod overall, however some of the unit stats seem off.