DMS 2.7 - Moral and Unit Formations

**Roustabout** · August 09, 2011, 05:03 PM

Hi all. I have a couple of questions about DMS 2.7 (Singleplayer, Hard, AUM-SHO, Extended campaign)

1. Are moral effects changed? I am having a hell of a time routing enemy units since I upgraded from 2.65. I often have to inflict upward of 75% casualties before a unit routes. And enemy generals? Forget about it. I've had two enemy generals (ranks 2 and 3, respectively) fight until they had only 2 or 3 men left (in the open field) against overwhelming odds.

2. Anyone else finding it nearly impossible to hold the line? Even in spear wall, my units tend to swap sides with the enemy. It wouldn't be a big deal if I could get units to route in a reasonable amount of time, but they last so long the lines tend to completely swap. Kinda maps flanking pointless. I just wait with all my cavalry and swords for the lines to switch sides and then charge the center.

Maybe I'm going crazy but the game seems totally different now. Thoughts?

**Mr Kami** · August 09, 2011, 06:45 PM

All of this will be adressed when Darth returns from his vaccation wich shouldnt be to long now.

**♔DARTH LEGO♔** · August 10, 2011, 01:18 AM

1. Are moral effects changed? I am having a hell of a time routing enemy units since I upgraded from 2.65. I often have to inflict upward of 75% casualties before a unit routes. And enemy generals? Forget about it. I've had two enemy generals (ranks 2 and 3, respectively) fight until they had only 2 or 3 men left (in the open field) against overwhelming odds.

always been a tough one to balance and get right; with the current penetration though; units get surrounded far quicker and so naturally go into a FTTD stance instead of fleeing. So just hit units head on instead of going fort he surround and kill you will see they break far quicker.

2. Anyone else finding it nearly impossible to hold the line? Even in spear wall, my units tend to swap sides with the enemy. It wouldn't be a big deal if I could get units to route in a reasonable amount of time, but they last so long the lines tend to completely swap. Kinda maps flanking pointless. I just wait with all my cavalry and swords for the lines to switch sides and then charge the center.

Again penetration: My argument is that it is too high; but i have to concede its a far more realistic representation of Japanese warfare; you have to remember these aren't legionnaires or Spartan hoplites, or even French fusiliers; essentially there is no line to hold. Even the weakest warriors never carried a shield or a buffer it just wasn't the Japanese thing to do, but rather their warfare was based on singular combat, alot changed in Sengoku Jidai with the advent of conscripted peasants etc and i guess they never attempted the style.

its very a different way of fighting which makes it alot faster than the slug fest of European medieval armies or that of the Roman legions; whcih the name of the game was find and grind the enemy with superior numbers and an unstoppable battle line.

Japanese sengoku warfare is about speed, flashy swords and head lopping

**Chris_92** · August 10, 2011, 09:16 AM

I think Roustabout means the complete swap of the lines when enemy units and your own charge on each other. I have got this too. It makes every battle line useless and it looks completely stupid, in my opinion. The soldiers don't meet in the middle, they seem to run past each other, turn around, recognizing the enemy and then start fighting. You can't keep the enemy away from your side, which is the main thing in every single battle.

Maybe the low density of the lines is the problem? Just a guess.......

**Chris_92** · August 10, 2011, 02:56 PM

ok i just edited the base density in the darthmod.shogun.pack but it didn't change anything. The first two rows start to fight while the rest is just running past each other. Can anyone tell me if I've changed the right thing in the wrong pack or the wrong thing in the right pack?

**Rome101** · August 10, 2011, 03:13 PM

It's the new penetration mechanics that 2.65 (or 2.7?) implemented. I groaned my dislike of this new setting before and I shall make use of this thread to groan again. I dislike this feature and it's one of the things (aside lack of time and the recent patch) that kept me from playing Shogun2 recently.

**rob-a-dogg** · August 10, 2011, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Roustabout

Hi all. I have a couple of questions about DMS 2.7 (Singleplayer, Hard, AUM-SHO, Extended campaign)

1. Are moral effects changed? I am having a hell of a time routing enemy units since I upgraded from 2.65. I often have to inflict upward of 75% casualties before a unit routes. And enemy generals? Forget about it. I've had two enemy generals (ranks 2 and 3, respectively) fight until they had only 2 or 3 men left (in the open field) against overwhelming odds.

2. Anyone else finding it nearly impossible to hold the line? Even in spear wall, my units tend to swap sides with the enemy. It wouldn't be a big deal if I could get units to route in a reasonable amount of time, but they last so long the lines tend to completely swap. Kinda maps flanking pointless. I just wait with all my cavalry and swords for the lines to switch sides and then charge the center.

Maybe I'm going crazy but the game seems totally different now. Thoughts?

Im not noticing the side swapping with spear wall. Some times a few men get thru, like 20 or so (from 3-400). Possibly do dont have your wall deep enough. I use 7 or 8 ranks. Its like the bad guys hitting a brick wall. Even fresh off the press ashugaru do ok vs samurai for a while like this, certainly long enough to sort out a flanking cav charge. When you use spearwall, are you keeping a big long contiguous line made out of multiple spearwalls? this is key, try to limit passages where badguys can slip thru.

Morale for me is fine, people break when they should. New ashugaru units after about half the unit dies, samurai after 200+ casualties (so over half), and guys with buffs last longer. As the battle progresses i notice more and more 'local chain routing' happening.

Is this just a bug a few people are getting maybe?

Im using DMS2.7, AUM-DMSbeta3 by the way

**Roustabout** · August 10, 2011, 03:56 PM

That's a good point about increasing the number of ranks in my units. I tend to spread them fairly thin, which worked just fine prior to the melee penetration change.

**Chris_92** · August 10, 2011, 04:00 PM

I've got a video on youtube to show you what I mean:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtjtmyH9C9U

**Roustabout** · August 10, 2011, 04:05 PM

Hah, nice video. Does each get a flanking bonus?

**rob-a-dogg** · August 10, 2011, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Roustabout

That's a good point about increasing the number of ranks in my units. I tend to spread them fairly thin, which worked just fine prior to the melee penetration change.

I generally always use shorter, deeper blocks, if i want the line longer i just add another unit to it. I keep my line thick, it means when all the penetration happens my line is so thick that when the lines clash, the bad guys endup half inside my unit with half of their own sitting around out back doing nothing while all of my boys are hacking the idiots who got trapped to bits.

Spearwall however does an excellent job of keeping mostof the bad guys on the otherside of the line, os when using that it isnt as effective at cutting men off. It is excellent at keeping a high kill to casualty ratio tho.

**♔DARTH LEGO♔** · August 11, 2011, 03:20 AM

think Roustabout means the complete swap of the lines when enemy units and your own charge on each other.

Um yeah...in english we call it "penetration"

hence my post explaining it.

It's the new penetration mechanics that 2.65 (or 2.7?) implemented. I groaned my dislike of this new setting before and I shall make use of this thread to groan again.

Exactly, i have stated my dislike too, although i can see its historical relevance and place in battles i think its a little too OP for the game enjoyment....IMHO.

That's a good point about increasing the number of ranks in my units.

i normally have thick blocks of infantry but it rarely helps you still notice the penetration ;its just relative not any better.

**Berengar** · August 12, 2011, 05:53 AM

My observations are similar, I'm finding the penetration excessive. The units effectively swap sides more often than not. It might not be so bad if units were deeper by default, but that would seem to be fixing a fix. On the other hand, the vanilla situation of straight lines of bodies is also silly. Somewhere in between lies the golden mean.