Huge unit balance

[TW-fanboy]

Not sure if the NI forum is the best place to discuss changes to FATW...

To give a faction-specific, you do this:

population_growth_bonus bonus 2 requires factions { celts, }
population_growth_bonus bonus 1 requires factions { franks, huns, }

where "celts" is the internal name for Dunland, "franks" is Rhun and "huns" is Rohan. The above is an example of course, you can assign whatever values to whatever faction.

So how big should the faction specific growth be?

[Aradan]

To give you a specific answer I'd have to go and try every combination 9and there are many) and then choose the best one. We haven't tested or balanced the mod for Huge, so I can only give suggestions.

+2 for Dunland, +1 for the rest, probably, though Rhun and Harad can do without any boost at all perhaps. It's been a long time since I played a TNS campaign, so if other players have better feedback about which factions drain their population faster, I hope they'll contribute.

[Thangaror]

Actually I never play on huge, maneuvering becomes a real nuisance with that many men in one unit.
A +2 for Dunland is too high I think. Dunhold and Dunchrioch grow really fast as soon as you build an orc-hold, actually playing on large I do have troubles to maintain order esp. in Dunhold. Folks there are always somewhat uppish, showing me "blue faces". So having additional growth bonus they might even revolt; and miriain are alway short in Dunland, so recruiting full stack after full stack isn't possible. (Wait, does this mod affect AI only? Then it might be ok).

I'm not sure about Rhûn, I never played a full campaign. Harad doesn't need a bonus for sure, and I think the same is true for the RK. Her cities do grow fast even with very high taxes and the units are so small (and they're so expensive and powerful) that you won't deplete the cities if you stick to recruiting from MT, Dol Amroth and Pelargir. You'll have conquered Emyn Arnen and Ithil pretty soon anyway, so you'll end up with five big cities. And you'll be fine with say four full-stack elite armies and five garrison forces.

[TW-fanboy]

So do you think a general + 0.5% growth bonus would be ok?

[Casual Tactician]

From my experience what Aradan said about the boni seems the best solution.

+2 for Dunland, +1 for the rest, probably, though Rhun and Harad can do without any boost at all perhaps.

Playing a RK WoM-custom-campaign on very difficult where ALL factions receive a +1 respectively +0.5% bonus, I can say that neither Harad nor Rhun need any bonus (loads of full stacks). Dunland is getting beaten by Rohan and except the two Dunlandish settlements near the Misty Mountains most others don’t grow much. Rohan seems quite fine with a 0.5% bonus. Adunabar is also fine with 0.5%. And I guess an AI controlled RK would also be fine with 0.5%, as without any bonus it might get eaten up by Harad early on.
I guess this could work nicely (actually it's mainly Aradan's proposal, only with all factions listed):

For the 6 Custom Campaigns (WoM):
AI Reunited Kingdom > +0.5%
AI Adunabar > +0.5% (perhaps +1.0% if human plays RK or to make them a bigger threat generally - a matter of taste though)
AI Rohan > +0.5%
AI Dunland > +1.0%
AI Harad > none
AI Rhun > none
Human Player > none

For the All-Factions Campaign (TNS 2.6):
Reunited Kingdom > +0.5%
Adunabar > +0.5%
Rohan > +0.5%
Dunland > +1.0%
Harad > none
Rhun > none
Human Player > none (If it’s possible to exclude the human player from getting the bonus somehow. But I’m not sure if that is possible, though Aradan ought to know.)


@ Aradan

1.) What is the “Victory Conditions” or “Critical Information” building called in the EDB? The easiest way to modify the pop-growth would be to use "population_growth_bonus bonus X" in combination with the “requires faction”-thingy TW-fanboy posted in the OP, and to use that on one of those two buildings – would that work?

2.) I guess the six factions are called the same in the EDB as in the EDU ...: Rohan (= huns), Harad (= sassanids), RK (= empire_east), Adunabar (= empire_east_rebels), Rhun (= franks), Dunland (= celts), right?

3.) And is it possible to exclude the human controlled faction or to only apply a bonus to the AI factions using something like “requires factions ( not human, )” or “requires factions ( AI controlled, )” – or any other way? That would be great, if one want’s to exclude the human player from a pop-growth bonus in the All-Factions campaign.

[Aradan]

1.) What is the “Victory Conditions” or “Critical Information” building called in the EDB? The easiest way to modify the pop-growth would be to use "population_growth_bonus bonus X" in combination with the “requires faction”-thingy TW-fanboy posted in the OP, and to use that on one of those two buildings – would that work?

2.) I guess the six factions are called the same in the EDB as in the EDU ...: Rohan (= huns), Harad (= sassanids), RK (= empire_east), Adunabar (= empire_east_rebels), Rhun (= franks), Dunland (= celts), right?

3.) And is it possible to exclude the human controlled faction or to only apply a bonus to the AI factions using something like “requires factions ( not human, )” or “requires factions ( AI controlled, )” – or any other way? That would be great, if one want’s to exclude the human player from a pop-growth bonus in the All-Factions campaign.

1. The VCs building is called "hidden" and belongs to the "hinterland_hidden" bldg line. The other building is used for the revolt-CTD-blocking recruitment, and buildings with recruitment lines can't take more than a few effects, or the game will crash, so it's a safer bet to use the VCs building instead. You can find buildings' internal names easily by checking text/export_buildings.txt

2. The internal faction names are the same in every file naturally.

3. Nope. It would be very nice is CA had included such a condition, but unfortunately there isn't one.

[TW-fanboy]

From my experience what Aradan said about the boni seems the best solution.Playing a RK WoM-custom-campaign on very difficult where ALL factions receive a +1 respectively +0.5% bonus, I can say that neither Harad nor Rhun need any bonus (loads of full stacks). Dunland is getting beaten by Rohan and except the two Dunlandish settlements near the Misty Mountains most others don’t grow much. Rohan seems quite fine with a 0.5% bonus. Adunabar is also fine with 0.5%. And I guess an AI controlled RK would also be fine with 0.5%, as without any bonus it might get eaten up by Harad early on.
I guess this could work nicely (actually it's mainly Aradan's proposal, only with all factions listed):

For the 6 Custom Campaigns (WoM):
AI Reunited Kingdom > +0.5%
AI Adunabar > +0.5% (perhaps +1.0% if human plays RK or to make them a bigger threat generally - a matter of taste though)
AI Rohan > +0.5%
AI Dunland > +1.0%
AI Harad > none
AI Rhun > none
Human Player > none

For the All-Factions Campaign (TNS 2.6):
Reunited Kingdom > +0.5%
Adunabar > +0.5%
Rohan > +0.5%
Dunland > +1.0%
Harad > none
Rhun > none
Human Player > none (If it’s possible to exclude the human player from getting the bonus somehow. But I’m not sure if that is possible, though Aradan ought to know.)

You chose the same bonus for WoM and TNS, did you mistype? And why shouldn't Rhun and Harad don't empty their settlements if the unit size is doubled?

[Casual Tactician]

You chose the same bonus for WoM and TNS, did you mistype? And why shouldn't Rhun and Harad don't empty their settlements if the unit size is doubled?

No mistype, they are the identical. Making two lists was simply unnecessary, now that I take a closer look.

Playing the RK on very hard, with huge units and with +0.5% pop-growth for all factions (after roguhly 50 turns), Harad has all of it’s settlements on level large city (except recently conquered one’s) and is pouring out full stack after full stack no trouble. They are compared to the other factions overpowerd and by far the strongest in military, territories and population.
Regarding Rhun: After having a look at some other campaign saves as well, they’re actually fine with the +0.5% pop-growth bonus. I guess it’s their starting position and having no enemies at the beginning, what makes them a strong faction and not so much the added 0.5% pop-growth.

[TW-fanboy]

So you think the following would be adequate?
Reunited Kingdom > +0.5%
Adunabar > +0.5%
Rohan > +0.5%
Dunland > +1.0%
Harad > none
Rhun > +0.5%

[Casual Tactician]

Imo, yes.

[TW-fanboy]

Ok I added pop growth accordingly (using government buildings). The file is attached.

[Casual Tactician]

You could point out, that it's only for the all-factions campaign and not the custom WoM campaigns. Some folks unfamiliar with FATW might not know that.

EDIT: Uploaded my updated EDBs for the custom WoM campaigns, to be able to get the above mentioned population bonuses when playing a specific faction campaign (option 2-7 in launcher). Here's a link.