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Thread: The Ancient Silk Road

  1. #21

    Default Re: The Ancient Silk Road

    This is the mechanism of the silk road:
    Chinese merchants trade with Indian merchants - Indian merchants trade with Persian merchants - Persian merchants trade with Greek/Roman/Mediterrean merchants who bring the goods from the east to their homelands.

    The Persians were in the middle of the silk road so they had great interests on this traderoute.
    A chinese story said that a chinese emperor (I don't remember who it was) sent a general with a small expedition to search the legendary western empire called Taqin Guo (Roman Empire for the Chinese, and Serra Maior was the latin name for China). This small expedition was helped by persian guides. Almost at the border of Taqin Guo the persian guides realized that the Chinese wanted to contact the Roman Empire and told them that the empire was still thousands of miles away, so the Chinese general decided to return home, thinking that it would be impossible to reach that legendary kingdom.

  2. #22
    Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze's Avatar Occasio mihi fertur
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    Default Re: The Ancient Silk Road

    Well you're in luck, I'm a history major and very informed on the ancient world era. The fact of the matter is, is that the allure of money has made people do crazy things. Merchants would travel though unexplored areas of the world, crossing over mountains and through jungles, trying to get to distant lands and bring back invaluable trade goods. The Middle East is still a part of Asia, even though we never really see it that way, but as more of a subcontinent.

    If you read the Old Testament in the Bible, various books give detailed descriptions of trade goods that were imported or exported from various kingdoms and nations, and where the finest products came from, such as the best linen, the finest purple or scarlet silk, the best gold or silver, gems, iron, or bronze, as well as various woods for making different kinds of decor. Also, there is a special jewel called lapis lazuli which is found only in the northern mountains of Afghanistan, and this stone was imported by merchants all the way to Mesopotamia, during the reign of the Sumerian city-states from 2500-2000 B.C.

    Also, another important factor was the life and religion of Siddhartha Budda. Since he was an Indian prince, and since his religion had many followers, after his death, missionaries went into different parts of Asia spreading the new ideals of Buddhism, which was around the middle 400's B.C. Buddhism reached Persia perhaps 100 years before Alexander, and so with the new religion came people from India and various different trade goods, as well as new ideas. Not to mention a good portion of west India was conquered by Persia during this time.

    The problem lies in that beyond the advanced realms of India lay the uncharted and mostly tribal kingdoms of the Khmer, which was Thailand, Malaysia, Cambodia, Laos, and Burma. In order to get through this land, you needed a guide, most likely, and someone who could speak the language, as there was always the chance you would be murdered for being an outsider. For a Greek, it would be impossible. But for a Persian who has Indian vassals, it could be accomplished. This would also require several translators to get by these lands, or guides. And lastly, China. To get to the heart of China would probably require one or two more translators, unless the Chinese were familiar with Khmer or Indian dialects. Whether or not China was united makes little difference, because trade routes were still used and the Chinese still encouraged foreign trade.

    The more brave route would be to go around the Himalayas, through Tibet, and go around the Gobi desert, most likely underneath it in Tibet, and head east for China. Although it would have less people and less "jungle danger" from poisonous snakes and the like, the climate would still be very cold, and probably lots of mountains to cross. However, like I said before, the allure of money makes people do crazy things, and just as explorers in Europe tried to find the bottom of Africa, and even tried to chart the Nile, it is extremely unlikely to say that no one tried to reach China and come back with riches. It is also extremely unlikely to say that no one succeeded, either. In Alexander's time, the silk road would be much less dangerous than it would be before his time, but not impossible.
    So basically, our assumption was more or less correct?
    Informative post, btw, have some rep

  3. #23

    Default Re: The Ancient Silk Road

    Just read this:

  4. #24
    Rinan's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: The Ancient Silk Road

    Thanks YuilenZ01 for posting! If I'm correct, you're basically confirming what we had agreed upon? That is, there might have been very sporadic trade from east to west (and vice versa) but the Silk Road only truly became established after Alexander. You also stated that Buddhism and trade reached Persia from India before Alexander, but going further west to China is more difficult! I hadn't really thought of a landroute through South East Asia, wouldn't it be more logical to travel from India to China by sea?

    The fact of the matter is, is that the allure of money has made people do crazy things.
    Makes me think of the exploration of America by the Spanish...

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael333 View Post
    Just read this:
    Lol, that's fiction, I suppose? Might pick it up if I'm bored one day!
    Last edited by Rinan; August 16, 2011 at 06:25 AM.

  5. #25

    Default Re: The Ancient Silk Road

    It's half/fiction and real history: it is possible that roman soldiers arrived into China.

  6. #26

    Default Re: The Ancient Silk Road

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael333 View Post
    It's half/fiction and real history: it is possible that roman soldiers arrived into China.

    Nope, sorry, never happened. Pretty much impossible for the Romans, possible for the Chinese. However the Chinese turned back after they realized how far away the Roman Empire was. More like three parts bull , one part wishful thinking.

  7. #27
    Rinan's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: The Ancient Silk Road

    Why is it impossible? Arguments please.
    Also, it's worth noting they turned back because the Persians told them it was much, much longer, but they had greatly exagerated to prevent the two giants forming a political block.

  8. #28
    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Ancient Silk Road

    Hmm, does that mean Persians knew where both China and Rome lied?

  9. #29
    Rinan's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: The Ancient Silk Road

    I'm not sure, but I think The Persians must've had closer contact to Rome. Why? There were lots of wars between them, which means interaction. Very little wars between Persia and China. Again, the same fact that I have repeated countless times in this thread: the area between Persia and China is inhospitable. But I suppose the Persians would know a little bit more about the Chinese than the Romans did.
    And of course, despite the distance, it's clear that there is no benefit in it for Persia to see Rome and China ally?

  10. #30
    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Ancient Silk Road

    Yes, since the Chinese proved capable of mounting large scale military expeditions almost as far as the northeastern border of Persia, and yeah, there were no wars between Persia and China. They did have common enemies and a common enterprise, though.

  11. #31

    Default Re: The Ancient Silk Road

    Quote Originally Posted by Rinan View Post

    Makes me think of the exploration of America by the Spanish...
    And colombus was a lucky bastard too. he thought the world was about 7000 miles in diameter smaller than everyone else knew it was. if those nice, gold filled continents hadn't been there, he'd be up a small body of water without a rowing apparatus

    Please rep me for my posts, not for the fact that i have a Pony as an Avatar.


  12. #32

    Default Re: The Ancient Silk Road

    Quote Originally Posted by Rinan View Post
    Why is it impossible? Arguments please.
    Also, it's worth noting they turned back because the Persians told them it was much, much longer, but they had greatly exagerated to prevent the two giants forming a political block.

    It's impossible because of the giant wall of Persia that blocked Romans and any Christians or pagans from crossing. And of course the many rabid scythians and sarmatians in the steppes that would raid and kill any merchant stupid enough to take that route. It was impossible for the Romans, and it never happened as a result. It WAS possible for the Chinese, and like I said before, they tried to get to the Roman Empire with Persian guides, but turned back after hearing just how far away it was.

  13. #33

    Default Re: The Ancient Silk Road

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael333 View Post
    Just read this:

    I know that book but I thought it was about a roman centuria that ended up in China!

    There is a story told by plinius and plutarch about the cautive soldiers of Carras, they were driven to eastern frontier of parthia and some of them were forced to fight against the huns.

    some historians say the ended up in china. some chinese register say something about foreigner soldiers and the testudo formation.

    if anyone can read spanish:
    http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legi%C3%B3n_perdida
    Last edited by Rex Romanorum; October 12, 2011 at 06:04 PM.

  14. #34

    Default Re: The Ancient Silk Road

    Quote Originally Posted by Rex Romanorum View Post
    I know that book but I thought it was about a roman centuria that ended up in China!

    There is a story told by plinius and plutarch about the cautive soldiers of Carras, they were driven to eastern frontier of parthia and some of them were forced to fight against the huns.

    some historians say the ended up in china. some chinese register say something about foreigner soldiers and the testudo formation.

    if anyone can read spanish:
    http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legi%C3%B3n_perdida

    The Huns you're referring to are likely the Hephthalites who were based around the north of Bactria. They were still over 1,000 miles from northern China. And since you said the eastern frontier, it is highly likely that is what they were. The Hephthalites were the eastern Huns that chose not to migrate west.

    Some "historians" may be optimistic and hope, however the reality is that Romans never reached China. If indeed they made it to India, like Alexander before them they would be cut down or robbed or murdered by the Mauryan Empire. However since they traveled northeast and encountered the Hephthalites, it is likely they were captured, held as "guests", and never got farther than that. The Hephthalites may have captured them as curiosities. The vast area of mountainous terrain in Tibet, and then the Gobi desert acted as natural barriers to any foreigner trying to get to China instead of through India.

    Why put your hopes in something so stupid? Even Atlantis has had a better chance of existing than Romans actually reaching China. Alexander himself couldn't reach it, and he had Indian vassals. Only until the reign of the Mongol emperors was China accessible through both the northern and southern routes.

    Romans had a better chance of finding the Americas, because all they had to do was get on a boat and sail west until they find land. But the language barriers, climates, poisonous animals, diseases, humidity, and hostile natives, not to mention thousands of miles of land travel were in the way of reaching China.

    If the Chinese had the ability to reach Rome with relative ease, which they did, and still turned back after traveling for hundreds of miles, hearing that they still needed to travel thousands more to reach Rome, what makes you think Romans who have no ability to reach China would be able to travel such a long distance unharmed? Vain hope is all it is.

  15. #35
    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Ancient Silk Road

    Alexander's "rule of India" was rather limited - to nominal rule over a few petty border buffer states, which formed after central Persian authority collapsed.

  16. #36

    Default Re: The Ancient Silk Road

    If the Chinese had the ability to reach Rome with relative ease, which they did, and still turned back after traveling for hundreds of miles, hearing that they still needed to travel thousands more to reach Rome, what makes you think Romans who have no ability to reach China would be able to travel such a long distance unharmed? Vain hope is all it is.
    If I'm not mistaken, there were some Roman emperors who sent small embassies to the Han Empire, but I'm not sure...

    Why would Romans have had no ability to reach China? The Romans are notable for their adaptability and resourcefulness that is built into their culture. If they really wanted to reach China, they would have.

    Regarding Alexander- first of all his goals didn't really include China directly. He wasn't conquering for the sake of reaching China (if he was then he wouldn't have gone down to Egypt and visited Nubia). Alexander had to turn back in India because of demoralized soldiers who were far from their homes and didn't really know what they were doing anymore (not to mention India is quite large and there were far more foes than Porus to deal with). Embassies or trading parties would have had their sights set on reaching China without stopping to conquer and subdue the people they encountered, so comparing parties like those to Alexander's army is like apples to oranges.

  17. #37
    Rinan's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: The Ancient Silk Road

    Quote Originally Posted by YuilenZ01 View Post

    If the Chinese had the ability to reach Rome with relative ease, which they did, and still turned back after traveling for hundreds of miles, hearing that they still needed to travel thousands more to reach Rome, what makes you think Romans who have no ability to reach China would be able to travel such a long distance unharmed? Vain hope is all it is.
    You keep on repeating this. It is true that the Chinese turned back after hearing how far away it was from their Parthian guides. Those guides had greatly exaggerated the remaining distance left, because it was not at all in their interest for two powerhouses flanking their own empire on both sides to become great buddies. Imagine China and Rome grouping up. That's definitely not in the interest of the Parthians. Therefore the guides exaggerated the distance. The Chinese ambassadors didn't turn back because of the distance, but because of their perception of distance.

    I think, theoretically, it could have been possible for the Romans to reach China. I mean, if trade caravans can pass the Gobi desert without getting captured by the Hepthalites, then so could Romans. But in reality it's probably never been done because making the journey takes years, and no-one must've found it worthwile. That, and the Parthians lay in between. Probably the Parthians were more of a problem than whatever nomads roamed the steppes east of Iran.

  18. #38

    Default Re: The Ancient Silk Road

    Quote Originally Posted by Rinan View Post
    Imagine China and Rome grouping up.
    Pfffhhhh AHAHAHAH

    Seriously? never the less, i dont think the romans would had looked kindly on the chinise... likely called them barbarians... and secondly do you think the chinise could had in anyway invaded parthian territory?
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  19. #39
    Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze's Avatar Occasio mihi fertur
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    Default Re: The Ancient Silk Road

    i dont think the romans would had looked kindly on the chinise... likely called them barbarians
    They saw the Sassanids as their equals, so I think that when they'd have enough experience with the Chinese they'd certainly do the same to them.

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