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Thread: Jon snows birth [SPOILERS]

  1. #21
    Jaime Goldenhand's Avatar Shisai
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    Default Re: Jon snows birth [SPOILERS]

    Also the fact that there were members of the kingsgaurd at the Tower of Joy (where Lyanna was) during the time that the battle on the Trident took place. The only way they would not be with Rhaegar during such a crucial moment is if they were protecting part of the royal family.
    Also when Ned is dreaming about Lyanna's last words it mentioned she said them in a bed of blood which indicates childbirth.




  2. #22
    Heart of Madness's Avatar Chugen
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    Default Re: Jon snows birth

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguinary Guardian View Post
    AFFC spoiler, read at your risk
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Cersei says that before Jaime, she loved Rhaegar, whom she was supposed to marry (and Aerys canceled the betrothed, shaming Tywin Lannister in public). She was madly in love with Rhaegar, even more than with Jaime.
    That's 100% true everyone... however, I believe as always Rhaegar is the father, and Lyanna is the mother.

  3. #23
    MAMO72's Avatar Kirā
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    Default Re: Jon snows birth [SPOILERS]

    But, even if Raeghar e Lyanna are Jon's parents, we still have two Targaryens for three dragons, who is the third?

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    Sanguinary Guardian's Avatar Sagittarius
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    Default Re: Jon snows birth [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by FOR GONDOR View Post
    i am going to sumerize all evidance that the child is lyanna's and rheagars.

    1. robert hates the targarians for what they "did" to lyanna (possible rape scenario)
    2. if lyanna was raped by rheagar and with child due to it, then robert would kill jon
    3. lyanna haunts neds dreams with her final words "promise me ned, promise me" IMO she is making ned promise to keep the childs identity seacret
    4. ned wouldn't let robert kill a baby, my evidence for that is that he got so pissed off when robert sends assassins to kill daenaeries.
    5. ned wouldnt do that
    6. the war started because of what happened to lyanna, wich was 15 years before the book starts and the war lasted around 9 months to a year, sooooooooooo making the time line corect.
    7. all of neds other chidren except for arya are more tullyish than stark, but lynanna was still a stark and jon could just be on the stark side not the targarian side, nobody said that a kid couldnt inherit mothers traits.

    tats all the evidence i have compiled. i beive it would stand in a courtroom. please dont troll on these.
    That's the summary of R+L speculation. However, I would point on some things. IF Lyanna was raped by Rhaegar (as Robert claims), why would she want to keep the offspring of a raping alive? She was a Stark of the North, proud and (pun intended) stark in her views on honour. Having a bastard, especially from a raping would be humiliating to the extreme to the daughter of one of the most powerful lords of the Seven Realms. So why would Lyanna asked for Ned's promise to keep Jon safe? Adding credibility to that is that Rhaegar's character (up until AFFC) is portrayed to be very noble, proud and benevolent. I doubt that the Last Dragon would rape any girl, be they peasant or noble. It's just out of his character that Ned and many others seem to admire. If there is a Mary Sue character in ASoIAF it's definitely Rhaegar. So IF Jon is indeed the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna he was most probably the product of pure love between them. No rape, nothing.
    We do know that Jon is of Stark blood, though and that he has dark eyes (if they were violet, would they be dark?).
    Last edited by Sanguinary Guardian; July 25, 2011 at 03:40 PM.




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  5. #25
    Fulgrim88's Avatar Shisai
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    Default Re: Jon snows birth [SPOILERS]

    Interesting point. The important part is this, though:
    IF Lyanna was raped by Rhaegar (as Robert claims)
    No evidence whatsoever.

    It is known that he "stole" her and its pretty likely that he bedded her. When i read about the "bed of blood" for the first time, i actually thought Rhaegar had gone mad and murdered her for unrequited love. It wasn't until later that i saw the hint at childbirth. And the possibility that the unrequited love went another way entirely...

    IIRC, we have no idea wether he actually did her any harm, or wether she loved him. All we know is what Robert claims he did, but there are several things that make me doubt his story:
    1. Robert wasn't there. He only knows whatever Ned or Howland Reed told him.
    2. Robert was madly in love with Lyanna. He started his Rebellion for her, not for the Throne after all, and much of his later decline is attributed to her death. It's entirely possible that he made up the rape;
    --> To bear that she (maybe even voluntarely ?) left him for Rhaegar
    --> To deal with her death. This way he has somebody to direct his hate at (raping Rhaegar), rather than having his true love ripped from him by mischance (simply death in childbed)
    Keep in mind that this isn't "lying", it's more something he's been telling himself to bear with the truth

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  6. #26
    Jaime Goldenhand's Avatar Shisai
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    Default Re: Jon snows birth [SPOILERS]

    DWD SPOILER DONT ENTER UNLESS YOU READ THE BOOK
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by MAMO72 View Post
    But, even if Raeghar e Lyanna are Jon's parents, we still have two Targaryens for three dragons, who is the third?
    Saw this and just started laughing hysterically. He needs to read DwD. It would be really cool if that was how it worked out but it seems likely that Victarion will be one since Dany needs him and his horn in order to control her dragons. So that means either the 3rd could be aegon or Jon if he is brought back somehow (possibly melisandre)




  7. #27
    Sanguinary Guardian's Avatar Sagittarius
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    Default Re: Jon snows birth [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fulgrim88 View Post
    Interesting point. The important part is this, though:
    No evidence whatsoever.

    It is known that he "stole" her and its pretty likely that he bedded her. When i read about the "bed of blood" for the first time, i actually thought Rhaegar had gone mad and murdered her for unrequited love. It wasn't until later that i saw the hint at childbirth. And the possibility that the unrequited love went another way entirely...

    IIRC, we have no idea wether he actually did her any harm, or wether she loved him. All we know is what Robert claims he did, but there are several things that make me doubt his story:
    1. Robert wasn't there. He only knows whatever Ned or Howland Reed told him.
    2. Robert was madly in love with Lyanna. He started his Rebellion for her, not for the Throne after all, and much of his later decline is attributed to her death. It's entirely possible that he made up the rape;
    --> To bear that she (maybe even voluntarely ?) left him for Rhaegar
    --> To deal with her death. This way he has somebody to direct his hate at (raping Rhaegar), rather than having his true love ripped from him by mischance (simply death in childbed)
    Keep in mind that this isn't "lying", it's more something he's been telling himself to bear with the truth
    Precisely. Very good points (+ rep). I really can't believe that Rhaegar would rape Lyanna. It's out of place for his character. The "bed of blood" means that happened at childbirth, IMO. It's Middle Ages after all, things like these happened all the time.




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  8. #28
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    Default Re: Jon snows birth [SPOILERS]

    Could it be Robert's child? If they bedded before wedding, remember they were both at Harrenhal at the tourney. Doesn't explain why she wanted to keep it secret....
    Unless it's Brandon and Lyanna's? That would explain why she'd want to keep it secret (incest) and the very, very Starkiness.... the Targayens are presumably quite a strong seed due to the incest as the blood is pure while the Stark blood has been 'polluted'....

    (continues mad ramblings....)

    Oh, and doesn't R + L = J seem rather 'orthodox' and not very Martin? I mean, come on, Jon being born not just on the same day, but actually while her brother is fighting outside? Seems really unrealistic....

  9. #29
    Sanguinary Guardian's Avatar Sagittarius
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    Default Re: Jon snows birth [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Nye View Post
    Could it be Robert's child? If they bedded before wedding, remember they were both at Harrenhal at the tourney. Doesn't explain why she wanted to keep it secret....
    Unless it's Brandon and Lyanna's? That would explain why she'd want to keep it secret (incest) and the very, very Starkiness.... the Targayens are presumably quite a strong seed due to the incest as the blood is pure while the Stark blood has been 'polluted'....

    (continues mad ramblings....)

    Oh, and doesn't R + L = J seem rather 'orthodox' and not very Martin? I mean, come on, Jon being born not just on the same day, but actually while her brother is fighting outside? Seems really unrealistic....
    I have give it a thought (the Robert+Lyanna theory). Well it certainly ain't impossible, and she would want to keep secret. Remember that honour was very important for the ladies too. It would be shameful not to be virgin in the first night's bedding. Thus Ned stained his honour (but many nobles had bastards, so it wasn't such a big deal) to keep Lyanna's intact.
    Brandon and Lyanna eh? I love conspiracy theories. It could be, but why would Ned, renowned for his starkness and moral code keep the child, a stain in the honourable House Stark's name?
    Also the Kingsguard outside the Tower of Joy is a huge giveaway. Rhaegar and Lyanna is most probably the truest theory about Jon's parentage. I kinda hope that GRRM will pull the rug beneath our feet though and surprise us once more, though.
    Last edited by Sanguinary Guardian; July 26, 2011 at 10:30 AM.




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  10. #30
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    Default Re: Jon snows birth [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguinary Guardian View Post
    I have give it a thought (the Robert+Lyanna theory). Well it certainly ain't impossible, and she would want to keep secret. Remember that honour was very important for the ladies too. It would be shameful not to be virgin in the first night's bedding. Thus Ned stained his honour (but many nobles had bastards, so it wasn't such a big deal) to keep Lyanna's intact.
    Brandon and Lyanna eh? I love conspiracy theories. It could be, but why would Ned, renowned for his starkness and moral code keep the child, a stain in the honourable House Stark's name?
    Also the Kingsguard outside the Tower of Joy is a huge giveaway. Rhaegar and Lyanna is most probably the truest theory about Jon's parentage. I kinda hope that GRRM will pull the rug beneath our feet though and surprise us once more, though.
    I'd like to point out that while I am a conspiracy theorist, I don't actually believe them.
    Just in case anyone tohught otherwise.

    Actually, wouldn't Lyanna be rather near Aerys at this point? And given we know Aerys's 'urgings' and his wife is heavily pregnant, it's entirely possible....

  11. #31
    Targaryen's Avatar Ikko-Ikki
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    Default Re: Jon snows birth [SPOILERS]

    I found this interesting blog that deals with Jon Snow

    http://www.myspace.com/adamthornhollowrec/blog

    I truly think Jon snow is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

  12. #32
    Cazac's Avatar Kirā
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    Default Re: Jon snows birth

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx54321 View Post
    On other forums this has been done to death, the general consensus is that Lyanna + Rhaegar is the most probable parentage of Jon.

    It explains the Kings Guard being at the tower when Eddard turns up, they were defending Rhaegar's son not Lyanna. The dates also make much more sense than any other possibility.

    It explains Ned's silence over the issue and it also removes the only blot on Ned's honour which going on everything we know about him he would not of tarnished.

    It also makes Jon and Daenarys related which brings into play several prophecies as well as the concept of three dragons needing three riders (Targaryens).

    http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/george-r-r-martin/ Have a search in here for much more information and some other interesting theories too.

    Okay i understand this and a concur, but who would be the third rider aside from Jon and Dany?

  13. #33
    Jaime Goldenhand's Avatar Shisai
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    Default Re: Jon snows birth [SPOILERS]

    I hope it will be Victarion cuz he is such a badass and he has that horn that can supposedly control dragons




  14. #34
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    Default Re: Jon snows birth

    Quote Originally Posted by Cazac View Post
    Okay i understand this and a concur, but who would be the third rider aside from Jon and Dany?
    Read Dance.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Jon snows birth

    3 more days till it arrives (I live in Romania, doh ) and Jaime, i thought Crows Eye had the horn, or do things radically change in dance?

  16. #36
    Jaime Goldenhand's Avatar Shisai
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    Default Re: Jon snows birth [SPOILERS]

    At the end of AFFC he asks Victarion to go and get Danaerys for him and he gives him the horn.




  17. #37
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    Default Re: Jon snows birth [SPOILERS]

    Maybe, he had no mother, and is like a potato like I said! Or maybe, he is also part Direwolf, and his mother was the mother of all those Direwolves? Or, it could be a wildling, or Lyanna, or, maybe he had no Mom, and is a potato or wolf person.

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Jon snows birth [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaime Goldenhand View Post
    I hope it will be Victarion cuz he is such a badass and he has that horn that can supposedly control dragons
    IDK why but I have a very strong feeling, Arya will eventually become the third rider now that i've had some time to think about it. I'm sure we're a bit past this discussion point, but just thought i'd throw it out there

  19. #39
    lh197's Avatar Kihei
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    Default Re: Jon snows birth [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaime Goldenhand View Post
    I hope it will be Victarion cuz he is such a badass and he has that horn that can supposedly control dragons
    Does the 'Tyrion the Secret Targaryen' conspiracy fit into this? Cos I like that one But Victarion is also absolutely awesome, especially after Dance

  20. #40
    History_Buff's Avatar Shashu
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    Default Re: Jon snows birth [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaime Goldenhand View Post
    DWD SPOILER DONT ENTER UNLESS YOU READ THE BOOK
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Saw this and just started laughing hysterically. He needs to read DwD. It would be really cool if that was how it worked out but it seems likely that Victarion will be one since Dany needs him and his horn in order to control her dragons. So that means either the 3rd could be aegon or Jon if he is brought back somehow (possibly melisandre)
    DwD spoiler
    Their is no guarantee Jon is dead to begin with. Yes, he was stabbed multiple times with daggers and they say the last thing he feels is the cold. However, the cold could be the last thing he feels before passing out as well as the last thing he feels before he dies. He calls for Ghost, who might have killed the attackers. If that happened, then Melissandre or someone else might have gotten to him in time to save him. Also, I am in the Rhaegar+Lyanna camp as well. It makes the most sense. As for GRRM not doing that because so many have guessed it, I think that he tried to forshadow it, but the gap between books was longer then he intended, thus giving people more time to guess it.

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