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Thread: Best Vassals?

  1. #1

    Default Best Vassals?

    Hey, I just wondering who are the best vassals for this mod.
    One that can support itself econimcally unlike the date and shimazu.
    Mori is a good vassal buddy.

    Thanks in advance.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Best Vassals?

    I havent really ever thought about vassals like that before.
    I just use them as buffer states/trade partners/sea scouts (you get LOS along trade routes so if you have a long sea route to some one you can see the coast all along the trade path AND you get paid out for the privilege).
    I guess any clan that is in a gold mine province would be best since they make boat loads of cash just from the single province. Just park up half a stack of Ashugaru + general + couple of cavalry units for felxibility next to their city to back them up in case they get attacked and you should be good. Having an army (again doesnt need to be big, or just use the home defence army i just mentioned) to support them when they attack goes a long way also. Never forget to back your allies up if you want them to stick around long and also be an influncial player on the political map.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Best Vassals?

    Ah, some of the Vassals can't handle the reglion wars and rebels units in the campaign.
    I just need one or two that can handle themsevles without me running around with my armies trying to quell thier problems.

    Thanks for the reply though.

  4. #4
    MatrixStorm's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Best Vassals?

    Quote Originally Posted by someidiot777 View Post
    Ah, some of the Vassals can't handle the reglion wars and rebels units in the campaign.
    I just need one or two that can handle themsevles without me running around with my armies trying to quell thier problems.

    Thanks for the reply though.
    I think the Oda clan would be a good vassal due to their superior Yari units.
    Cheap strong units are a big advantage for a vassal.

  5. #5
    Mr Kami's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Best Vassals?

    Since when did Shimazu ever have financial problems?
    They have one of the best starting positions in the game for creating a stable economy in notime.
    I have never seen Date have financial issues either.
    As for who it depends on who you are playing?
    Certain clans have the past grievances penalty,it basicly guarantes that they will turn on you.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Best Vassals?

    Useful vassals tend to be ones with samurai capable dojos in their provinces and ideally a provincial feature that gives an economic boost (high fertility, trade goods, gold etc) so that you can earn more and they can raise a better army.

    You do need to calibrate your vassal strategy very carefuly to fit with your alliances to stop the latter falling apart catastrophically. Once committed, I never leave a vassal in the lurch which can be a little bit problematic when the aggressor is your brother-in-law.

    Finally, in the event of war have at least little squad to back them up. For instance I love playing Takeda, and even a quarter stack of light horse can make a tremendous difference to vassal survivability for a reasonable price, as well as provide excellent immersion (here comes the cavalry, just in time...).

  7. #7

    Default Re: Best Vassals?

    I'm playing as the Chosokabe, and I went for Mori as a vassal. They have about 5 provinces now and are helping me a lot with the wars I am in. Like other people are saying as long as you support them with some men they should be fine. If you are a clan on the eastern side of the map, Oda are a good choice when realm divide hits.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Best Vassals?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigHairyMelon View Post
    I'm playing as the Chosokabe, and I went for Mori as a vassal. They have about 5 provinces now and are helping me a lot with the wars I am in. Like other people are saying as long as you support them with some men they should be fine. If you are a clan on the eastern side of the map, Oda are a good choice when realm divide hits.
    Mori made excellent vassals for protecting sea lanes and chasing wako when I played Shimazu. Not only are their ships better, but they do love to build them. And somehow it seems they can't be trusted to remain just allies. Hehe.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Best Vassals?

    Thanks a bunch for replys!
    Which great clan would be a great vassal for the Takenda clan?
    He can take care of the rebels and religious problem greatly and be close enough to the Takenda to be taken over early on.

    Sorry for spelling, can't spell.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Best Vassals?

    The Tokugawa are pretty close to the Takeda and could help buffer your western side if you want to go Eastwards, The Oda will probably stomp on them pretty early on if you play with the Oda boost on so it shouldn't be too hard to get them. Imagawa are a bit closer but they aren't a great clan, but I don't know if that makes a difference. Don't think Uesugi are worth all the hassle unless you want to herd them westwards through the Ikko lands.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Best Vassals?

    Brace for impact, oversize post!

    I love playing Takeda, and so here is my totally subjective opiniion. The answer depends on whether you want to reenact history to an extent or not. If so, read up and prepare to fight on pretty much all fronts a lot of the time. Roads and horses, not vassals, will be your friends. If not, it's simpler. My strategy is born out of my first experiencs as Takeda on very hard in vanilla, when I was surrounded and overwhelmed, and more recently my attempt to run my "perfect" campaign as Takeda, where I build up for some time before facing the Oda/Tokugawa alliance. I am assuming you don't want to vassalise all your neighbours, only those where it saves you hassle.

    I'll start in the West and work clockwise. Simply put, Kiso look like good candidates, but are no good as vassals unless you provide military backup. Not only was Shinano the core of Takeda's histoircal domain, but they are too close to potentially powerful clans (likely Oda if you use the gallusmod, if not an Ikko Ikko or Hattori blob) to survive sustained attacks alone and will complicate your relations with same clans. If the province is held by potential enemies, it is better to hold one line at North Shinano than on different sides of impassible mountain ranges.

    In the Northwest, I tend to use either Jinbo or Anegakoji as vassals to block Ikko Ikki or (scarier still!) whoever conquers them. This is especially true if you want to forego researching temple technology, because without it, conquering in that direction is almost more hassle than it's worth (although later, Kaga and Echizen can make wonderful troop training provinces in the run up to claiming the Shogunate). Whoever you choose may need some military backup from time to time becaue of Uesugi or the Ikko Ikki.

    In the north, Uesugi do not really need vassalising. To me, they're only really interesting as enemies, and if you do beat them you might as well use Echigo as your northern naval base from which to take Sado and protect any naval routes on the western side of Honshu that you may have an interest in. The province's roads, together with those of North Shinano and Kozuke, are long enough to give warning of impending attack if you just try to keep Uesugi as slow burn enemies or secure them yourself.

    To the northeast, I would not vassalise Kozuke. Conquering it is extremely satisfying, it's strategically very useful, and it improves research and metsuke. A future shogun's dream. Of course earlier in the game you may be stretched, in that case by all means release them, but be aware they may require protection anyway precisely because of their location.

    If you want to plug the gap to the northern end of Honshu so that you can focus on the west/south, it is best to eventually do so by vassalising Ashina in Fukushima (but keep at least an agent there to slow the attack of Date or whoever unites the northern tip when it inevitably comes. If you have made alliances with the rulers of the north, do not use a vassal buffer, it will almost certainly precipitate a nasty falling out. They are far more likely to come through Fukushima than Echigo.

    How you deal with the clans of the Kanto to your east ultimately depends on your grand strategy. But if you want to claim the Shogunate without facing the Oda/Tokugawa alliance too early, as I generally always try to, you will want to secure the resources that only being kanrei of this rich region can bring you. And that means conquering all the way to the coast, with any buffer vassals only getting in the way of your next conquest. There is no good reason to vassalise anyone, except perhaps whoever ends up holding Musashi province if you want to provoke Hojo into attacking you without annoying your Imagawa allies.

    Finally, the south. You won't want to vassalise Hojo. If you can already beat them, you will want what their provinces have to offer anyway, and if you can't yet, they won't be joining your vassals. Simples.

    Nor, I think, will you want to vassalise Imagawa. You want Suruga, which is both historical and a very useful province (the way I play, it also tends to be my main or even only seaport for quite some time). It will make your relations with the Oda/Tokugawa difficult to maintain peacefully, and once you fight that juggernaut, you will need to devote troops to backing them up anyway, even if you don't want to march along the coast to Owari yourself. Which of course you will.

    Southwest... not really. I once vassalised Tokugawa for fun and struck to Kyoto through Mino. But... Mikawa has horses! You love horses! And why stop before Owari? Hell, if you got that far, why stop then?

    Finally, a radical thought. You could choose to focus on what I call the Kanto First Gambit. I don't usually do this, but it is very satisfying to pull off. This means vassalising Murakami to guard your entire northern flank while you hoover up Imagawa, Hojo and then the entire Kanto. By the time you are finished, you will be able to field enough armies on only a few friontiers and not need to worry about buffer states anymore. If you do this, the one thing to bear in mind is that as a recently defeated clan, Murakami will need some backup when (not if) Uesugi, a united Anegakoji/Jinbo empire or even Oda comes knocking. But if you provide thisin the form of plentiful and fairly cheap light cavalry, they can hold their own and you can basically go for the empire that could have been Hojo's, if only they had had the gumption ot pull it off. If you do this, Murakami may be the only vassals you'll ever really need.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Best Vassals?

    Oh dang, awesome reply.

    O_O, but it seems you don't want any great clans to be vassalize?

    How can you micromange all that mess?

  13. #13

    Default Re: Best Vassals?

    Interesting idea going for Hojo first like that as Takeda. I wonder if Murakami would hold that northern front for long enough? It would turn out to be quite an interesting campaign to say the least. Not sure it's the easiest route, but it certainly goes against the common strategy that generally seems to allow Hojo a great opening to become a successful clan - the player as Takeda focusing on the north, etc. The nice thing about letting Hojo loose is their cities are always well built and profitable; ripe for the picking as it's said.
    What do we say to the God of Death? Not today.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Best Vassals?

    @someidiot What mess? You'll see I avoid vassalising more clans than not. Vassals can be fun, but they shoud always be useful first and foremost. In my above strategy for instance Ashina can serve both roles if you help them conquer northern Honshu. But in the end you want your clan colouring the map.

    @alexjs It works if you back Murakami a little bit with some light cavalry, otherwise Uesugi or whoever will soon toast them. Going against Hojo/Imagawa is not a soft option and requires some deft maneuvering (especially if Hojo has managed to take Musashi and threatens Kai while your armies march south), but you quickly have a library/magistrate (Suruga), gold (Izu), a smithy (in Sagami, which once you add in proiving grounds is arguably even better than horses for your deadly cavalry) and once you take the riches of Edo you also have a good circular route for internal reinforcements (Musashi also has a town worth several hundred koku which the AI will gradually whittle away through high taxation if left in charge). It also avoids Takeda's key difficulty in concentrating troops due to long borders and with fairly poor provinces. Of course you do miss out on Hojo's building sprees, but then... that's because you now have their gold!

  15. #15

    Default Re: Best Vassals?

    Vassals goes into your victory thingy, yes?

    Sorry, if I came off rude, must be the lazy in me that I want my vassals just stomping everyone.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Best Vassals?

    Agreed Berengar, I love the vassal system - it adds a bit of depth and not to mention reliable trade sources. I only wish it worked a little bit more cohesively with your allies; I almost always have problems with one of my allies attacking my vassal. The best bet is to make allies that aren't on your borders in this way, since they're not keen on respecting your vassals, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense since vassals are technically -your- land.

    By the way, this may be a newbie question on my part, but you said, "AI will gradually whittle away through high taxation if left in charge." Does this mean lowering the taxes at some point is better for long term money making, or growth? I've always left my taxation at the average level since I'm usually grinding away just to make ends meet in almost all my campaigns; even when I have a couple trade routes. I don't know how people make over 5,000 a turn - unless they've conquered most the map - for example. Maybe I'm just not building correctly. I tried putting up more markets, but the food supply then became an issue.
    What do we say to the God of Death? Not today.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Best Vassals?

    Yes, lowering tax increases town growth and town happiness.

    Food supply is a bit tricky. Once wou are over ~20 towns markets arent worth the -1/-2 to food for town growth. 2nd tier market is -1 food + 10 town growth +1000 town wealth, 3rd tier is -2 + 20 town growth + 2000 town wealth.

    If you have 20 provinces and +1 food surplus thats +20 to net town growth over your entire empire simply for having the surplus, which is double the bang for buck of a single 3rd tier market which is -2 food + 20 town growth in single town vs -0 food +40 net town growth over empire. Plus the more food you have and the more privinces you have the bonuse increases proportionate to the number of towns you have + the number of food surplus you have. The only downside is the lack of instant town value that themarkets give you with their flat bonuses to town value (+500, +1000, +2000).

    But in the long run it doesnt take much time to out strip this bonus. Some campaigns I run on the tax level below default, after 50 or so turns in a stable empire (i.e. dont loose any provinces, not neccisarily need lots) you will notice your town values will look suspiciously high. Now imagine getting to 20 provinces like this. War starts. Crank the tax back up to normal and drown your enemies in gold
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