Can modders fix map of Russia and Spain?

[DrakeRH]

The original developers seem to have gotten Russia and Spain exactly backwards, and as a result both are easy to conquer.

Russia should be a single province with capital at Moscow. That way invading armies would not replenish but defending Russian armies would. As it is now, you grab one Russian province and wait while your armies fill back up then take the next province, repeat until victory. If Russia were a single province and the roads never got better than level 1 (dirt), getting to Moscow would be a lot harder. A fully built Moscow would be able to make all the troops Russia would ever need.

Spain should be several provinces. As it is now France can easily grab the two small provinces next to the Pyrenes and then march to Madrid. Grabbing Spain is so easy it's a bore. In reality, Joseph set up shop in Madrid but the Spanish war raged a long time after that. If Spain had six or eight provinces and every one of them had high insurrection value against foreign occupation, it would be harder to conquer and harder to hold. Spain would take large garrisons to hold, as it historically did. Also, Spanish roads were notoriously bad and should never be better than level 1, or maybe level 2 around Madrid only.

[DarthKael]

As far as I know map is unmodable ;(

[Ediblemittens]

the hell? How does that make sense? So under that setup, basically I could sneak an army under the radar of the presumably small Russian forces near the beginning of the game (they only have one city for their entire country now, putting them on par with a very technologically advanced Switzerland) take Moscow, and now have the entirety of Russia under my control, possibly taking them out of the game? When Napoleon took moscow, he didn't start collecting tax dollars from all the serfs, (actually none of them) he didn't eliminate Russia as a faction, and his men didn't start replenishing. What he had gained was a small chunk of Russian territory (which I might add, was entirely useless to him), which is what you gain under the current map. Sure, the current map may not be perfect, but it is one hell of a lot more realistic than your proposal.

As an example, lets consider this. For one, Russia during Napoleonic times was nearly unconquerable due to vast manpower reserves, huge expanses of territory, the extremely hot summers and cold winters, and the logistical nightmares of supplying an army across such barren stretches (the scorched earth policy of Russian commanders didn't help any invading force either). But compacting many smaller cities into a single one makes Russia extremely weak. it puts it on par with Switzerland, except that Switzerland is EASIER to defend, because its small revenue generating towns are actually close to the capital. With only a single place to recruit soldiers, Russia could very easily be gobbled up by a determined, historically weaker neighbour within a few turns.


Also, you can't edit the map.

[DrakeRH]

Ediblemittens, I do not understand your comments. A single province Russia becomes FAR more defensible. As it stands now, Russia is an easy kill. It shouldn't be. Consider:

1. Russian manpower: While standing in the single Russian province all Russian armies would receive reinforcements while their enemies would not. This would reflect the "vast manpower reserves" that Russian field armies could call upon. Napoleon did not receive reinforcements after Borodino. As it stands now, invaders can inch their way to Moscow one province at a time. The moment he grabs Minsk Napoleon starts to receive reinforcements. Good for France, bad for Russia, and completely unhistorical.

2. Putting Russia on par with technologically advanced Switzerland: Russia has only one university. How would this change by combining all Russian provinces into one?

3. Sneak an army under the radar: It is a long way from the Russian border to Moscow and you can not get there in a single march. On the other hand, if you have captured the small provinces that conveniently lie between the frontier and the target city of Moscow, you can make it from friendly territory to Moscow in one march.

4. When Napoleon took Moscow, he didn't start collecting tax dollars from all the serfs ... and ... he didn't eliminate Russia as a faction: Well, in this game you do. On VH/VH it is an easy matter to pound your way through Russian armies because you get reinforcements every turn. All you have to do is grab one province at a time and sit until your armies fill back up. You can even spend the winter in your most recently conquered province WHILE YOU RECEIVE YOUR REINFORCEMENTS!! Why didn't Napoleon think of that? You have to try pretty hard to avoid conquering Moscow LAST and the moment you do, Russia is out of the game and all Russians are happily paying taxes to Paris. That's how it works now. It should not work that way.

5. Extremely hot summers and cold winters: Since you can winter over in your most recently captured Russian province, who cares how cold it gets? If you hold Minsk, Russians don't get reinforced there, but the French do. However, if you had to fight your way to Moscow before the cold comes, and if the roads are dirt so you don't move half way across Russia in one turn, and if the Russians fight, you could easily run out of time and freeze. Anybody who does that now must be trying to lose.

6. Compacting many smaller cities into a single one makes Russia extremely weak: How? Keeping all the little towns and villages means you can RAID them, but you can not TAKE them, unless you leave garrisons. Russian flying columns could pick off small garrisons. Big ones sap the French strength. If Russia were a single province with 40 production towns, they would still have a lot of money, and depots to help replenish the armies.

7. Russia could very easily be gobbled up by a determined, historically weaker neighbor within a few turns: Who? Nobody starts with enough troops to march on Moscow. If Moscow is fully built (infantry, cavalry, artillery) all troops could be built (eight at a time) and complete corps could then be sent to the frontiers. Prussia and Austria face France. Ottomans only have one military production center at Istanbul. Sweden? Besides, if there is only one target ... I know where you are going. I don't have to defend St. Petersburg against Sweden, and the Crimea against Ottomans, etceteras ... Protect Moscow and send armies to deal with people raiding your production centers.

8. Logistical nightmares of supplying an army across such barren stretches: You're kidding, right? As the game plays now there are no logistical barriers. You can eat Russia one province at a time. If Russia were one province you would have to eat it in a single swallow or you freeze to death.

9. You can't edit the map: Well, ok, but I was thinking of Third Age:Total War. The map is COMPLETELY different. It's middle earth. If they could do that to Medieval:Total War, Crusades, why not do it to Napoleon:Total War?

As it stands now, Russia is an easy kill. If you lose an invasion of Russia, you have to be trying to lose.

[Ediblemittens]

Ediblemittens, I do not understand your comments. A single province Russia becomes FAR more defensible. As it stands now, Russia is an easy kill. It shouldn't be. Consider:

1. Russian manpower: While standing in the single Russian province all Russian armies would receive reinforcements while their enemies would not. This would reflect the "vast manpower reserves" that Russian field armies could call upon. Napoleon did not receive reinforcements after Borodino. As it stands now, invaders can inch their way to Moscow one province at a time. The moment he grabs Minsk Napoleon starts to receive reinforcements. Good for France, bad for Russia, and completely unhistorical.

2. Putting Russia on par with technologically advanced Switzerland: Russia has only one university. How would this change by combining all Russian provinces into one?

3. Sneak an army under the radar: It is a long way from the Russian border to Moscow and you can not get there in a single march. On the other hand, if you have captured the small provinces that conveniently lie between the frontier and the target city of Moscow, you can make it from friendly territory to Moscow in one march.

4. When Napoleon took Moscow, he didn't start collecting tax dollars from all the serfs ... and ... he didn't eliminate Russia as a faction: Well, in this game you do. On VH/VH it is an easy matter to pound your way through Russian armies because you get reinforcements every turn. All you have to do is grab one province at a time and sit until your armies fill back up. You can even spend the winter in your most recently conquered province WHILE YOU RECEIVE YOUR REINFORCEMENTS!! Why didn't Napoleon think of that? You have to try pretty hard to avoid conquering Moscow LAST and the moment you do, Russia is out of the game and all Russians are happily paying taxes to Paris. That's how it works now. It should not work that way.

5. Extremely hot summers and cold winters: Since you can winter over in your most recently captured Russian province, who cares how cold it gets? If you hold Minsk, Russians don't get reinforced there, but the French do. However, if you had to fight your way to Moscow before the cold comes, and if the roads are dirt so you don't move half way across Russia in one turn, and if the Russians fight, you could easily run out of time and freeze. Anybody who does that now must be trying to lose.

6. Compacting many smaller cities into a single one makes Russia extremely weak: How? Keeping all the little towns and villages means you can RAID them, but you can not TAKE them, unless you leave garrisons. Russian flying columns could pick off small garrisons. Big ones sap the French strength. If Russia were a single province with 40 production towns, they would still have a lot of money, and depots to help replenish the armies.

7. Russia could very easily be gobbled up by a determined, historically weaker neighbor within a few turns: Who? Nobody starts with enough troops to march on Moscow. If Moscow is fully built (infantry, cavalry, artillery) all troops could be built (eight at a time) and complete corps could then be sent to the frontiers. Prussia and Austria face France. Ottomans only have one military production center at Istanbul. Sweden? Besides, if there is only one target ... I know where you are going. I don't have to defend St. Petersburg against Sweden, and the Crimea against Ottomans, etceteras ... Protect Moscow and send armies to deal with people raiding your production centers.

8. Logistical nightmares of supplying an army across such barren stretches: You're kidding, right? As the game plays now there are no logistical barriers. You can eat Russia one province at a time. If Russia were one province you would have to eat it in a single swallow or you freeze to death.

9. You can't edit the map: Well, ok, but I was thinking of Third Age:Total War. The map is COMPLETELY different. It's middle earth. If they could do that to Medieval:Total War, Crusades, why not do it to Napoleon:Total War?

As it stands now, Russia is an easy kill. If you lose an invasion of Russia, you have to be trying to lose.

Your points are valid... but I still cant get over the idea of simply taking Moscow to completely take over Russia. It's a pretty huge area, with tons of large population centers and I simply find it a difficult to believe compacting the whole country into one place actually makes it more difficult to take. And Russia is only easy to take because your fighting the AI... really, unless your on VH/VH the AI isn't the sharpest tool in the shed.

Also... I'm pretty certain there is a limit for production towns in a single province. If that is the case, this idea simply cannot function due to an almost impossibly small economy for Russia it would create. Anyone with any solid mod experience in NTW know whether that is true?

Lets also think about the historical problems... your idea means that no other place at all in Russia can recruit soldiers, which is highly detrimental (and inaccurate). You're discounting Novgorod and St. Petersburg, (which I might add, is the capital of the entire empire), two very large Russian cities, basically making them 'economy towns', and cutting their ability to produce taxes and soldiers.

But I do feel like I need to explain the map; editing the map in medieval II is a simple job. You can open up the map editor and get to work, building a completely new map from scratch. Napoleon is a TOTALLY different engine and beast. Modding is infinitely harder in Napoleon, and if you'll notice, their isn't a single mod for NTW that has managed to actually edit the geography of any of the maps in any meaningful way.

However, I would meet you halfway... I think Russia (if it were possible) should be trimmed of a few provinces, to create more of those 'barren stretches'. One province, in my opinion, is far too few though (i think 4-5 max).

[DrakeRH]

Edible, I know nothing about modding NTW so some of my assumptions may be false. I know France has more economy towns than Saxony and I thought a vast "Russian Province" could have 30 or 40. Otherwise, yeah, Russia would be too poor.

As for troops, I was thinking Moscow would constantly crank out new troops as the Austrians do at Vienna and the Prussians do at Berlin, and as I always did at Paris. In reality there should be more, but I would like to eliminate "Jumping Off" points for "convenient" invasions. I was not discounting Novgorod and St. Petersburg, but they are so easy to attack ... especially from Sweden and by naval invasion. Both of which I have had to endure. Making them economy towns would remove the threat.

Oh well, since the map can not be changed there is no way to do it. So that is that.

[DunkFunk]

The map is untouchable at this point.

[Cromagnon2]

A good and valid solution to this problem, that maybe can be done is restricting unit recruitment to your homelands, and only make militias to foreign occupied territories available.
Later tier of buildings could give some limited recruitment facilities of some unique regional regiments.
(In my campaigns i always dismantle military facilities to simulate unwillingness to collaborate with the occupier).
Second point is that replenishment rate should be lowered to a minimum, unless you have a supply depot. Supply depots as they are now are almost insignificant, economical buildings are the better choice, so they should have more strategical importance.

[Commodore.Wesley]

Well the CA (Creative Assembely) has not even releaced the map mod tools for Empire: Total War. Plus if you add Steam which will try to cripple people who mod games, I doubt that they will ever will releace these tools.

As for Russia, the Teritories are nessuary for defence of Russia. I am probably sure that someone could mod the games so that replinisment is either very low or nil for all nations other than Russia. One main thing about France that in its armies it did not consist of a lot of French men but actualy with a lot of troops from other places such as Barvaria or Poland. Russia in Napoleon: Total War is hard to take over, even with reinforcements.

[DrakeRH]

Sorry Commodore, but on VH/VH Russia is a push over. I do agree with your observation that the Grand Armee had lots of non-French troops. If the human playing France could command armies belonging to protectorates, or if the human player could build "foreign" troops, THAT would make the game a lot more interesting. The following changes might also help and I think they are possible for modders:

1. All newly conquered provinces of Russia and Spain have high negative attitude that only gets better by one point per turn (make looting mandatory! That should do it.)
2. Until attitude of both upper and lower classes are at +1 you do not get reinforcements in that province
3. Rebellion should be automatic and produce one infantry unit every turn until lower class is at 0, and one cavalry unit every turn until upper class is at 0
4. If a human is playing the invaded country all "rebel" units should be under the player's control and you should get a chance to move them before they get hit
5. Support cost of troops should be halved (or even less) if they are in a province you own with upper and lower class attitude of +1 or better
6. Both land and sea movement is too far. Land movement seems to be based on unmolested marching in friendly territory with good weather on good roads.
7. Since you can't give more provinces to Spain, make looting mandatory when you conquer a Spanish province and have them spawn small stacks of rebellious troops every turn.
8. Also, Spain should start the game as a Neutral country that grants military access to France but will not declare war on anyone and WILL trade with Britain unless conquered.