Reinforcement battles - to CTD or not to CTD

[Khelvan]

Ok, this is the last major CTD we have to handle, and right now we haven't a clue as to what is causing it. We're trying to gather data on how and when it happens, so please post your reinforcement CTDs here, with the following information:

1) Factions - (Yours/Theirs)
2) Circumstances - Siege battle? Rally? Open field? Bridge? Fort? Where and when (winter?) did it happen?
3) Leaders - Were they captains, generals, or family members?
4) Outcome - Level of victory/defeat, did any defeated stacks survive? How many units remained?
5) Positioning - Were any of the stacks standing on siege graphics? On a land bridge? On a river crossing?
6) Version - EB Version (v.72, v.73a, v.74)
7) Traits - Does the traits file found right here affect the CTD?
8) Screen shots - If possible, please provide screen shots so we can see things like the units in each army, what year it was, whether there was a general, etc.
9) Save game - If possible, please use a free file hosting service, such as Yousendit, to give us the opportunity to test it.

Also, we're looking for information on reinforcement battles which happen without CTDs.

If you have, please post here with the pertinent facts:

1) Factions - (Yours/Theirs)
2) Circumstances - Siege battle? Rally? Open field? Bridge? Fort? Where and when (winter?) did it happen?
3) Leaders - Were they captains, generals, or family members?
4) Outcome - Level of victory/defeat, did any defeated stacks survive? How many units remained?
5) Positioning - Were any of the stacks standing on siege graphics? On a land bridge? On a river crossing?
6) Version - EB Version (v.72, v.73a, v.74)
7) Screen shots - If possible, please provide screen shots so we can see things like the units in each army, what year it was, whether there was a general, etc.
8) Save game - If possible, please use a free file hosting service, such as Yousendit, to give us the opportunity to test it.

Gathering this data will allow us to find correlations between various things happening, and the outcome.

Thanks for your help!

[davepyne]

I posted this in the bug reports section, but it seems like it belongs here

I have experienced two very similar CTD's. I am running 0.74 which I installed over 0.73a. I began this campaign on 0.73. Both CTD's occured after I fought a battle with my faction leader "Akrotatos Europontidas Lakedaimonios" and a reinforcing army on my side, as well as a reinforcing army on the AI's side. Auto resolving these battles did not produce a CTD. I used the default "show_err", and I run the game in high priority. There was no error message.
Here's a screeny of the first crash.You can see what units are in my army. I am attacking "Herakleides Aphetaios":


. . . and one of the second crash. In this one I am attacking "Captain Aristan":

crash 1 saved game file
crash 2 saved game file

I will test if the "neutered trait file" fixes my problem, and I will post a screenshot of my general so you can see his traits soon.

update: the neutered trait file fixes my CTD! I gues that means that my general was being awarded some trait which caused a CTD. When all the triggers were removed no crash. Now to figure out which trait. . . ok this is beyond me. Any ideas?

update again: One more thing I remembered. On the second CTD I got a heroic victory. ok here are screenshots of the traits I had before the crash:

[Khelvan]

Why following the steps and giving us this information is important:

Thousands of you have downloaded this mod. Hundreds of you have given us your feedback (most of it positive) about how the mod plays. A very small subset of you actively follow any given request for testing/steps used to test and report for specific things.

The purpose of releasing this Open Beta was not for the feedback to tell us if you like the mod, though we certainly appreciate that many of you do. The purpose of releasing it as a beta was that we knew we could not track down the source of problems without your help, and so we needed a large group of testers to help us. This reinforcement CTD is an example of why.

Because we can't find the source of this problem, we must gather data on how and when it happens, and find similarities in the data. We also have steps that you can go through to rule out various things for us, such as using the neutered traits file.

However, the trend has been that a great many of you love to play the game, but we have far more people demanding that we fix various things than we do people willing to go through the steps we ask for which are necessary for us to actually fix them. Not everyone falls under this category, but enough do that it makes an impression. Remember, this beta was released so that we can get the specific, structured feedback which we need so that you can play this mod without CTDs and other bugs that affect gameplay.

If people just -play- the mod, and won't join our structured tests, we can't improve the mod, and we might as well not have beta versions up for download.

So please, follow the above steps, and help us. If you can't do the screenshots or savegame uploads, at least follow the other steps. With your help we can find this bug, without it everyone will continue to crash to desktop.

Thank you.

[Khelvan]

Dave, thank you. Our traits person can address this presently, Tom will probably have to do so rather than having our testers go through the traits file, it will be more efficient that way.

Now if we can get some more people who have this problem to confirm it is fixed by using the neutered traits file...

[swabian]

a classical post-battle-ctd situation

EB 0.74 installed directly over 0.72 (don't ask me what i have done with my 0.73 version)

location/situation: siegeing carradonum. winter.




units involved:

hrabnaz (sweboz family member)

- ferulharjoz (gen. unit)
- ferulharjoz (family members)
- gastiz (merceneries)
- frameharjoz
- wodanawulfoz
- akwesiharjoz
- ridoharjoz
- lugoae
- bugimannoz



gen. cocolitanos:

- leuce epos (gen. unit)
- leuce epos
- mala gaeroas
- aljaz-gae (a placeholder according to descript.)
- many lugoae (poor fellas)

capt. siganduz:

- voodoománnóz (an rtr unit, implemented by myself. definately not the cause of this ctd)

the battle result... for whatever that's worth...

[img=http://img489.imageshack.us/img489/1520/resultatvorctd2wt.th.jpg]

as you can see, the wúdúmannóz have been completely eleminated. the enemy general was killed, btw.

i had the theory, that the combination of a captain and a general causes the ctd, but in davepynes second example (see above) it is unclear whether a family member or a captain is leading the reinforcements, while his first example shows a situation similar to the one i describe.
somehow i think that this has something to do with the dudes on the strategical map. one could find out if this is the case or not, if one exchanges the new EB map figures with vanilla ones for example. i think i'm going to try this. however, isn't there a way to screen all the things that happen during this critical loading procedure?

[Khelvan]

Swabian, thank you - have you followed step 7), and tested the traits file?

[swabian]

ok, i haven't read the thread properly and simply overlooked davepynes editing of his last post.

1. i have reproduced the situation with the neutral traits and no ctd occured. i have had essentially the same battle result, i.e. victory & enemy capt. & general killed. that means, it definately is a trait issue

2. i have done the battle again with the traits file of 0.74, but this time automatically (close victory with some additional mercenaries) and i have identified hrábnáz traits changings.

the changings were

untouched by fear -> brave
+victor

and winter->spring of course, but that can't cause the crash. so maybe you should create two new traits files, one without the trait 'brave' and the other one without 'victor', attach it here and then i'll try it again. i'll see to morrow if i have time to do it myself.

[DARTH VADER]

Bcs I would like to help and cannot see this myself pls clarify to me if this happens mid-battle- reinforcement based.
If yes, I can help you out bcs it is a formation issue.

[Khelvan]

Darth, this CTD occurs after the battle is over, while the campaign map is reloading, so I do not think it has anything to do with formations, but I appreciate the offer.

[swabian]

ok, i tried to manipulate the export_descr_character_traits.txt by simply deleting 'level victor' and/or 'level brave' or by deleting the whole traits, but anything of this is causing ctd's when i load the game and click for the next turn.

so i just followed a suspicion and repeated the automatically resolved battle under different circumstances (moved something, recruited one mercenery, two mercenaries or 0 mercs). as a result, my charter allways gained the trait 'victor' and in many cases he increased his 'untouched by fear' trait to 'brave' and if i recruited merceneries he got the 'mercenary captain' trait, but absolutely nothing else happened. some traits obviously aren't rendom triggered, hence there is really a great chance, that either 'brave' or 'victor' causes at last some of the post-battle-ctd's. especially 'victor' is highly suspicious, because it definately occurs allways after any automatically resolved result of this battle. could someone pls try to confirm/disprove this?

[Malrubius]

If the trait shows up after an autoresolve, then there isn't a problem with that trait. There could be a problem with a trigger, but deleting anything from the export_VnVs.txt file or anything from the top of the edct file would likely cause CTDs.

[davepyne]

in davepynes second example (see above) it is unclear whether a family member or a captain is leading the reinforcements, while his first example shows a situation similar to the one i describe.
somehow i think that this has something to do with the dudes on the strategical map. one could find out if this is the case or not, if one exchanges the new EB map figures with vanilla ones for example. i think i'm going to try this. however, isn't there a way to screen all the things that happen during this critical loading procedure?

The Greek reinforcements were led by a general. The Macedonians had two groups reinforcing which were both captains. Their original army was also led by a captain.

[swabian]

If the trait shows up after an autoresolve, then there isn't a problem with that trait. There could be a problem with a trigger, but deleting anything from the export_VnVs.txt file or anything from the top of the edct file would likely cause CTDs.

you're the expert. however:


it's a fact that the ctd did not occur with the neutral edct (linked above) in davepynes situation as well as in my situation. it is also a fact, that my battle caused a ctd in every case i played it (victoriously) and in every case i resolved the battle automatically, the respective character gained the 'victor' trait, so i think it is very likely, that he would also gain the 'victor' trait, if the game wouldn't crash after i have played this battle instead of resolving it automatically.

if the game crashes (at last in davepynes and my cases) with the 0.74 edct file but not with the neutral edct file, how can you be sure about what you stated?

edit: i mean neutered edct, not 'neutral'. lol.

[Khelvan]

Try commenting out just the trigger for the victor trait, this section, by adding semi-colons before the lines:

Trait VictorOthersVirtue
    Characters family

    Level Victor
        Description Victor_desc
        EffectsDescription Victor_effects_desc
        Threshold  10

        Effect Influence  1
        Effect PersonalSecurity -1

    Level Famous_Victor
        Description Famous_Victor_desc
        EffectsDescription Famous_Victor_effects_desc
        Threshold  20

        Effect Influence  1
        Effect PersonalSecurity -3

    Level Conquering_Hero
        Description Conquering_Hero_desc
        EffectsDescription Conquering_Hero_effects_desc
        Threshold  30

        Effect Influence  2
        Effect PersonalSecurity -5

Tom, let's not rule anything out at this point before we test it. We know that what SHOULD happen and what DOES happen in RTW are often very different.

[swabian]

this is exactly the passage i deleted at first. later i also tried to delete the first level and i just tried the semi-colons which doesn't help either, as expected.

@ davepyne, could you try to figure out if it's the 'victor' trait your character woud gain, if you resolve the battle automatically?. you could destry some buildings in order to get money for mercenaries or simply use a cheat to get money or spawn unit's.

cozuld someone please help with cheats? i don't know any cheats.

[Khelvan]

I don't know the first thing about cheats, sorry.

[swabian]

i'm just about to realize, that identifying and eleminating bugs must be a very depressing job =(

i'll try to steer my current game into another siege-situation. if it's again the victor trait that appears after an automatically resolved ctd-causing battle, you can seriously go by that this trait is a cause of at last some of those post-battle-ctd's.

[Malrubius]

You can't delete or comment out that section or you'll get a CTD every time--that *is* the trait. Give me some time to run some tests and I'll see what I can figure out.

Please post any save games from just before the battle with a short note explaining how you initiated the battle, or if you let the AI attack you.

[swabian]

that *is* the trait.

i noticed this by all means, you know?

Please post any save games from just before the battle with a short note explaining how you initiated the battle, or if you let the AI attack you.

this is impossible, because i implemented some units and, unfortunately, exactly the unit that attacked my sieging army (as you can read&see above somewhere) is one of those implemented units

the preceding story is, that i simply sieged this rebel settlement for at last 5 rounds and at one or two rounds before the countdown reached 0, this unit appeared and attacked my sieging army. what is actually the word for such an army (or unit in this case)? in germany, we call this 'entsatzheer' i couldn't find a translation yet. it's the denomination of armies that force sieging armies to lift the siege..just curious.

tom, the simplest way to find out if it is the 'victor' trait or not would be to deactivate this trait in such a way, that the game doesn't crash. could you please explain me how to do this?


EDIT: i just noticed that the third one of davepynes attached pictures shows that his general allready had the 'victor' trait before the critical battle took place. maybe just any increment of the victor trait simply causes a ctd in those weird situations? we'd really need to know how this general's traits look like if the battle is won with the auto option.

[Malrubius]

That VictorRomanVirtue and VictorOthersVirtue trait are both from the original game and I haven't touched them, except to comment out one line. If you think they're the cause of the problem, you can delete or comment out this section:

;------------------------------------------
Trigger battle5
    WhenToTest PostBattle

    Condition IsGeneral
          and WonBattle
          and FactionType seleucid
          and PercentageEnemyKilled > 25
          and not Trait Bug = 1

    Affects VictorRomanVirtue  2  Chance  100
    Affects InspiringSpeaker  2  Chance  4

;Mod481 - 02/28 : added percentage enemy killed condition
;------------------------------------------
Trigger battle6
    WhenToTest PostBattle

    Condition IsGeneral
          and WonBattle
          and not FactionType seleucid
          and PercentageEnemyKilled > 25
          and not Trait Bug = 1

    Affects VictorOthersVirtue  2  Chance  100
;    Affects InspiringSpeaker  2  Chance  4

;Mod: EBMod417 - 05/09 : commented out InspiringSpeaker
;Mod482 - 02/28 : added percentage enemy killed condition