A Dance With Dragons Discussion (spoilers. DO NOT ENTER UNTIL YOU HAVE FINISHED THE BOOK)

[Inarus]

That's different. Prologues and Epilogues are absolute death sentences.

I wonder if that counts for Dany in aGoT


Here's dragons, now enjoy 4 books of dead storyline

[History_Buff]

Personally, I doubt that he will win the war. However, I am one of those people who believe he is not dead. That is too important a story line to be resolved without showing it happen. More importantly, there were 2 POV characters in Stannis' army. Given from GRRM's style so far, major events are only described and not shown when there is no POV character placed to experience them. That is why most of Robb Stark's battles are not seen. The main Northern POV was Catelyn and she was not present at any of the battles. Not to mention, if he was dead, their would be no reason to send the letter in the first place. If he is dead and his army destroyed, why even send the letter. Roose or Ramsay could have gone in person to the Wall with there army and told Jon that he either had to turn over "Arya", Theon, and Stannis's household or be destroyed right there and then. Jon would have had no choice but to comply, as there would not have been time to organize resistance. By sending the letter, he gave Jon time to rally the Nights Watch to his cause and attempt to march on them. If he had tried that with a Bolton army at the Wall, the Bolton men would have likely slaughtered everyone right then and there because both Roose and Ramsay are too smart to let Jon rally the Nights Watch to attack them right under their noses and would have had men in the gathering hall or someone informing to them in the hall somehow. Moreover, Ramsay Bolton does not have the authority to make the demands he does. He is influential, but it is his father who pulls the strings. Therefore, it should be him sending the letter to Jon. These things combine to either make me think that one of two things, or possibly both, have happened.
1. Roose Bolton is dead. This would certainly put Ramsay in a position to send the letter. It would also explain why the letter was sent, as Ramsay is a lot less diplomatic and practical then Roose Bolton is and therefore would think nothing of potentially making an enemy of the Nights Watch.
2.The Boltons were defeated by Stannis. The letter makes a lot of sense if this has happened. If Stannis is truly dead and his army destroyed, the Nights Watch does not really pose a credible threat to the Boltons and there would be no great hurry to deal with their seeming support for Stannis, as that could be dealt with at their leisure. However, if Stannis defeated them, then it makes a lot more sense. The Boltons would be greatly weakened and looking for any leverage they can get over Stannis and being handed his wife and daughter would be perfect for that. Also, there forces would be greatly weakened by the defeat if it was major enough, and given that both sides seem to believe this will be the decisive battle, it would probably be a major defeat. Therefore, a Stannis aligned Nights Watch would constitute a potential threat. If they decided to break with their tradition and officially declare for Stannis, they could potentially march South. As long as Jon, someone clearly wronged by the Lannisters, is in charge, this is a real threat. However, sending the letter specifically meant to antagonize him would be the perfect solution to the problem. It would get him to make his move prematurely and possibly lead to infighting. He had to make his decision and get his men rallied to march very quickly if he wanted to raise a resistance. Therefore, while he was enough of a speaker to get the common soldiers behind him, he did not have enough time to get the support of the key leaders of the Nights Watch and they therefore made their move to remove him. The fact that they were crying when they attacked him reveals that they did not want to remove him, but felt they had no choice in order to stop him. If he really wanted to march South, he would have had to either gain their support and get them to break from the neutrality tradition (difficult because their continuing to see the Wildlings as enemies shows that they are traditionalists and rather slow to change), or have them removed somehow.

[Karazor]

dude you did a lot of thinking and much of it shows logic , but the thing is , George R.R Martins is writing these books and he changes he's mind verry quiclky example : when the fans get to atached to certain cahracters he KIlls them , or turns a good situation in a bad one , you never know what might happen next , you can just assume

bUt i hope both stannis and jon will stay alive , or in the case of jon to be brought to life again

[Chris Perry]

I suppose if Stannis did die, his corpse would probably have a warmer personality that when he was living.
Also, am I the only one annnoyed with how many people GRRM infers could be Azor Ahai? Vic, Jon, Dany, Stannis.... It'll be Hodor next.

[IrishBlood]

Personally, I doubt that he will win the war. However, I am one of those people who believe he is not dead. That is too important a story line to be resolved without showing it happen. More importantly, there were 2 POV characters in Stannis' army. Given from GRRM's style so far, major events are only described and not shown when there is no POV character placed to experience them. That is why most of Robb Stark's battles are not seen. The main Northern POV was Catelyn and she was not present at any of the battles. Not to mention, if he was dead, their would be no reason to send the letter in the first place. If he is dead and his army destroyed, why even send the letter. Roose or Ramsay could have gone in person to the Wall with there army and told Jon that he either had to turn over "Arya", Theon, and Stannis's household or be destroyed right there and then. Jon would have had no choice but to comply, as there would not have been time to organize resistance. By sending the letter, he gave Jon time to rally the Nights Watch to his cause and attempt to march on them. If he had tried that with a Bolton army at the Wall, the Bolton men would have likely slaughtered everyone right then and there because both Roose and Ramsay are too smart to let Jon rally the Nights Watch to attack them right under their noses and would have had men in the gathering hall or someone informing to them in the hall somehow. Moreover, Ramsay Bolton does not have the authority to make the demands he does. He is influential, but it is his father who pulls the strings. Therefore, it should be him sending the letter to Jon. These things combine to either make me think that one of two things, or possibly both, have happened.
1. Roose Bolton is dead. This would certainly put Ramsay in a position to send the letter. It would also explain why the letter was sent, as Ramsay is a lot less diplomatic and practical then Roose Bolton is and therefore would think nothing of potentially making an enemy of the Nights Watch.
2.The Boltons were defeated by Stannis. The letter makes a lot of sense if this has happened. If Stannis is truly dead and his army destroyed, the Nights Watch does not really pose a credible threat to the Boltons and there would be no great hurry to deal with their seeming support for Stannis, as that could be dealt with at their leisure. However, if Stannis defeated them, then it makes a lot more sense. The Boltons would be greatly weakened and looking for any leverage they can get over Stannis and being handed his wife and daughter would be perfect for that. Also, there forces would be greatly weakened by the defeat if it was major enough, and given that both sides seem to believe this will be the decisive battle, it would probably be a major defeat. Therefore, a Stannis aligned Nights Watch would constitute a potential threat. If they decided to break with their tradition and officially declare for Stannis, they could potentially march South. As long as Jon, someone clearly wronged by the Lannisters, is in charge, this is a real threat. However, sending the letter specifically meant to antagonize him would be the perfect solution to the problem. It would get him to make his move prematurely and possibly lead to infighting. He had to make his decision and get his men rallied to march very quickly if he wanted to raise a resistance. Therefore, while he was enough of a speaker to get the common soldiers behind him, he did not have enough time to get the support of the key leaders of the Nights Watch and they therefore made their move to remove him. The fact that they were crying when they attacked him reveals that they did not want to remove him, but felt they had no choice in order to stop him. If he really wanted to march South, he would have had to either gain their support and get them to break from the neutrality tradition (difficult because their continuing to see the Wildlings as enemies shows that they are traditionalists and rather slow to change), or have them removed somehow.

The nights watch would not fight Ramsey if he came to castle black with his army. They would stab Jon snow in the back if he made any attempt to make them fight. HOWEVER, thats not to say Jon Snow would lead the wildlings against ramsey, which was what he was planning to do when he was stabbed.

Also I firmly believe that Stannis was not defeated, the force beaten by ramsey was the one that Umber guy raised to join stannis.

[lh197]

I wonder if that counts for Dany in aGoT


Here's dragons, now enjoy 4 books of dead storyline

That wasn't an epilogue, just a Dany chapter. Every chapter that is given as a prologue or epilogue ends up with the POV character dead.

[Chris Perry]

That wasn't an epilogue, just a Dany chapter. Every chapter that is given as a prologue or epilogue ends up with the POV character dead.

When I realized this, started reading the ADWD epilogue and realized is was Kevan's POV, I was sad. I liked that guy. Sorta.

[History_Buff]

Also I firmly believe that Stannis was not defeated, the force beaten by ramsey was the one that Umber guy raised to join stannis.

No, it was not. I believe what they attacked was the bankers group, but they thought it was Stannis. They are simply lying about the battle.

bUt i hope both stannis and jon will stay alive , or in the case of jon to be brought to life again

Jon did not necessarily die. All we know for certain that he was stabbed and blacked out. He called fro Ghost, who might have been able to take care of the attackers. If that happened, Melissandre or someone else might have had the time to save his life.

[Captain Melon]

All the stuff happening south of the wall is irrelevant. The undead armies will find a way across the wall and all will tremble and shiver in the cold......... By the way, was it old nan who mentioned Frost Dragons? Or was it someone else. I remember Jon thinking about frost dragons. Also what are your thoughts on Brans future role and what is that sleazy Littlefinger up to in the Vale.

[IrishBlood]

All the stuff happening south of the wall is irrelevant. The undead armies will find a way across the wall and all will tremble and shiver in the cold......... By the way, was it old nan who mentioned Frost Dragons? Or was it someone else. I remember Jon thinking about frost dragons. Also what are your thoughts on Brans future role and what is that sleazy Littlefinger up to in the Vale.

well to my knowledge frost dragons are never mentioned, however GRRM did write a childrens book abotu a frost dragon in a world loosely based on westeros, I think it was discussed in this thread some where awhile back.

As for little finger, If his plan to marry sansa to the heir to the eyree (cant remember his name) goes according to plan, then it would not be long before an Arynn army besieges KingsLanding, and I doubt there'd be anyone left to stop them.
The crown lands dont have many men left after the attack on dragonstone. The lannasters have lost all their best leaders and are a spent force at this point. The Tyrells still have the most men but their over stretched, having to deal with the Ironborn and the brotherhood without banners, not to mention the threat they'll soon be facing from Aegon and his mercenaries.

And sooner or later the Martells are going to join the war, almost certainly on the side of Aegon, and when that happens the Tyrells will be in a looooooooooooooot of trouble!

[ArtoriusRex]

I doubt Littlefinger will jump in just yet- he needs to make himself Lord of the Eyrie first in order to ensure his total control of the armies of House Arryn. If Sansa is married to the heir of Arryn immediately, he could potentially challenge Petyr Baelish should he give an order to attack King's Landing. I think Littlefinger will wait for just a little bit longer, probably for the Tyrells to finally be forced to concentrate their forces somewhere, be that with the BWB, Aegon, or Dorne. When the Tyrells are distracted, that is when he'll strike.

[Audeamus]

~snipped to make post manaegable size~

You seem to be forgetting the blizzard and harsh winter. Also, there is no chance Ramsay will be able to hold the North together. His claim is of legitimised bastard, his authority granted by a dead King's Hand and the current King is a young child. His authority is weak and the fact is, he cannot possibly march anywhere in the current weather condition.

dude you did a lot of thinking and much of it shows logic , but the thing is , George R.R Martins is writing these books and he changes he's mind verry quiclky example : when the fans get to atached to certain cahracters he KIlls them , or turns a good situation in a bad one , you never know what might happen next , you can just assume

bUt i hope both stannis and jon will stay alive , or in the case of jon to be brought to life again

GRRM has stated repeatedly that he has not deviated from his original outline at all.

[Antoniusz]

Now that you guys mention Littlefinger I wonder if he knew about Aegon and Golden Company coming to Westeros. As for his plans in the Eyrie. If Sansa is married to Harrold then he will have North and East under him. With Riverlands beeing already his I think he could simply eliminate Harrold somehow and marry Sansa himself. Thus he would be legitimate ruler of North, Riverlands and Vale.
Oh, and I can't wait when North gets to know about Sansa. They will go bonkers

[Toho]

Now that you guys mention Littlefinger I wonder if he knew about Aegon and Golden Company coming to Westeros. As for his plans in the Eyrie. If Sansa is married to Harrold then he will have North and East under him. With Riverlands beeing already his I think he could simply eliminate Harrold somehow and marry Sansa himself. Thus he would be legitimate ruler of North, Riverlands and Vale.
Oh, and I can't wait when North gets to know about Sansa. They will go bonkers

something tells me Sansa would somehow learn from Littlefinger and turn the tables on him, even though his plan was to do what you just said i get the feeling sansa will jump in the driver seat at some point.
littlefinger seems to be training her in his arts too.

[History_Buff]

well to my knowledge frost dragons are never mentioned, however GRRM did write a childrens book abotu a frost dragon in a world loosely based on westeros, I think it was discussed in this thread some where awhile back.

As for little finger, If his plan to marry sansa to the heir to the eyree (cant remember his name) goes according to plan, then it would not be long before an Arynn army besieges KingsLanding, and I doubt there'd be anyone left to stop them.
The crown lands dont have many men left after the attack on dragonstone. The lannasters have lost all their best leaders and are a spent force at this point. The Tyrells still have the most men but their over stretched, having to deal with the Ironborn and the brotherhood without banners, not to mention the threat they'll soon be facing from Aegon and his mercenaries.

And sooner or later the Martells are going to join the war, almost certainly on the side of Aegon, and when that happens the Tyrells will be in a looooooooooooooot of trouble!

I believe he may do just that. My personal opinion is that Littlefinger has his eyes set on the throne and he will do ANYTHING to make that happen. That is why I dislike him. He is completely untrustworthy and would sell out his own mother to further his ambitions. The amazing thing is that no one seems to see him as a threat because he has negligible armed strength. They don't seem to realize that his strength lies in political manipulation and that can be just as powerful. The fact of the matter is that if anyone seriously important seriously wanted to remove him and move against him, he would be screwed. But they won't because they don't think that he is a threat. That being said, I think his plan is to install people on the throne of the Vale and the North who he believes he can control (Harry and Sansa respectively). Then with the Riverlands, the North, and The Vale of Arryn all either under his control or supporting his claim, he will make his move against the Iron Throne. He probably plans to take advantage of lingering animosities among the Riverlords to the Iron Throne and his own position as their liege lord, combined with his control, or perceived control, over Sansa and Harry to achieve this. Then, it would relatively simple to march on Kings Landing and seize the Throne for himself. With the Lannisters essentially a spent force, he need only wait for the Tyrells to be weakened enough for him to make his move.
Personally, I hope that he will fail in this plan and I hope it will happen because someone (probably Sansa if I am reading GRRM right here) will beat him at his own game. Personally, if it is Sansa, that would make it all the more sweet because he is the one who essentially trained her in political maneuvering.

[Chris Perry]

If Wyman Manderly does get Bran back, Jon Snow becomes Jon Stark due to Legitimization, and Sansa marries Harry, who will become Lord of the North?
It would be perfect GRRM style to on the Starks by forcing them into a civil war among themselves.

[Dido]

If Wyman Manderly does get Bran back, Jon Snow becomes Jon Stark due to Legitimization, and Sansa marries Harry, who will become Lord of the North?
It would be perfect GRRM style to on the Starks by forcing them into a civil war among themselves.

If Jon would have gotten legitimized as a Stark he would have the best claim due to age. If not then it would be Rickon who has the best claim due to the male preference in the succession laws.

[Chris Perry]

If Jon would have gotten legitimized as a Stark he would have the best claim due to age. If not then it would be Rickon who has the best claim due to the male preference in the succession laws.

But Rickon is barely more than a toddler, and presumably will be skeptically regarded. Imagine House Manderly saying "Oh look! Rickon Stark! He's not dead, and we just happen to have him."
Jon Snow would have to be a Red God following resurrected corpse, ex nights watch and legitimized by kings of uncertain authority.
And I doubt Harrold Hardying will sit back meekly when he could claim the North.
Although part of me thinks this is GRRM just doing his usual to keep every door open for the fans, like with Azor Ahai, I reckon its going to lead to war.

[MagUidir]

If Jon would have gotten legitimized as a Stark he would have the best claim due to age. If not then it would be Rickon who has the best claim due to the male preference in the succession laws.

If he is legitimized what do you think his Sigil will be?

[Toho]

a red eyed white direwolf with a black field.