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Thread: The historical accuracy of the Hattori clan...

  1. #1
    Ikko-Ikki
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    Default The historical accuracy of the Hattori clan...

    They were just ninja clans in Iga, right? were they mercenaries or something? because I doubt that a few small villages had the might to even muster an army, let alone invade a neighboring province...
    the same for the ikko ikki. weren't echizen and kaga under asakura and maeda respectively?

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    Ranmaru~Mori's Avatar Ikko-Ikki
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    Default Re: The historical accuracy of the Hattori clan...

    Hattori clan wasn't even a real clan- Hattori Hanzo, the clan's namesake, was the most major samurai in his family line, really- his father, while a samurai, was a nobody, especially compared to the other clans in the game. The Iga ninja were seperate from the Hattori family, afaik.

    The Ikko Ikki served a notable enough threat to Nobunaga's expanse that he wiped them out, so while it's disappointing the Asakura and Maeda don't exist in TW, it's not an entirely incorrect idea to have them in those provinces. Might have been better in Kii, since the famous Ikko Ikki faction Saika Ikki (or Saiga or Saica, depending on the romanization) held a lot of sway there compared to in Echizen and Kaga. However, that's really close to where they put the Hattori, so I can see why CA moved them to the Maeda and Asakura's spots.

  3. #3
    Robin de Bodemloze's Avatar Nothing is true
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    Default Re: The historical accuracy of the Hattori clan...

    Historically Iga and parts of Omi provinces were full of families that practised a type of stealth and martial arts that can be loosed categorised as "ninjutsu". During the sengoku period Iga was not controlled by a dominant clan and instead became a quasi-republic of sorts called the Sokoku Ikki (nothing to do with Ikko Ikki).

    In 1580 or so Nobunaga's son decided to attack Iga for no apparent reason (Iga was relatively poor and held little strategic value) but was roundly defeated. Consequently Nobunaga raised a huge army to "restore" the good Oda name which had been soiled by defeat, and burnt the entire province down to the ground.

    In terms of historical accuracy, yes there were masses of ninjas everywhere, yes there was a Hattori family, which was one of if not the leading one in the region, yes Hanzo and his associated badassery was more or less there, no they were not daimyo of Iga.

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    Shaxx's Avatar Cornicularius
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    Default Re: The historical accuracy of the Hattori clan...

    You should try the Realism and Historicity Overhaul Mini-Mod. A shameless bump on my part.

    It make several changes to the Hattori Clan, making them more like their historical counterpart. For example, in it they are called 'Iga Sokoku Ikki'. But when referring to themselves (as the player) they use 'Iga Ripaburikku', which means the 'Iga Republic'. Which helps explain their expansive behavior under the player, essentially choosing the Iga/Hattori clan is to change history a bit from that very decision. The Hattori clan at that point has basically seized power over the administration by annexing one of the other three leading families (the one not represented by a historical general) and has centralized their rule.

    It is also made so that the clan drops the 'Ikki' from it's name when they become Shogun, as it means 'revolt'. To make it more appropriate under AI control, the mod makes them mainly stick to the Iga province, more interested in survival, as the Iga Sokoku Ikki was mainly just a defensive pact, and now use agents instead of armies.

    The Iga Sokoku Ikki in it now uses the term 'Sesshou' to refer to itself once they rule Kyoto, rather than 'Bakufu' or 'Shogunate'. Sesshou means 'regency', and represents more or less the common stock of these two factions, it being a stretch to attach them to a noble line of Daimyo and an even greater stretch to a line of Shoguns (which is required to be Shogun no matter what).

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    Ikko-Ikki
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    Default Re: The historical accuracy of the Hattori clan...

    i'm looking it over, sounds interesting...one thing though, not Iga Ripuburikku, please...not to be mean but you did realize thats engrish right? maybe you could find a suitable synonym, like confederacy or union or federation...

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    Lysimachos's Avatar Hastatus
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    Default Re: The historical accuracy of the Hattori clan...

    In addition to what has been said, I'd just like to quote what I wrote in a different thread some time ago, although partly redundant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysimachos View Post
    People tend to make the conception of the Hattori look worse than it really is.

    Sure, there was no single clan with an army of Ninja ruling Iga with the name Hattori. But let's have a look on what is true.

    - Iga was famous for families who practised techniques that could be titled as ninjutsu.
    - One of these families were the Hattori. One member of this family is in fact one of the more famous men from Iga: Hattori Hanzo Masashige served Tokugawa Ieyasu as commander of Tokugawa's detachment from Iga. In the chronicle "Mikawa Monogatari" Hanzo is named as one of Tokugawa's best Samurai.
    - The Samurai of Iga dealt a humiliating defeat to an Invasion force led by Oda Nobuo, using surprise attacks, night attacks, covert troop movements etc.; in short: diverse Guerilla tactics.

    There certainly is a good portion of artistic license, but I do think that the bonus the Hattori faction gets has the same or even more justification than some of the other clan bonusses.

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    Shaxx's Avatar Cornicularius
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    Default Re: The historical accuracy of the Hattori clan...

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonOfEchigo View Post
    i'm looking it over, sounds interesting...one thing though, not Iga Ripuburikku, please...not to be mean but you did realize thats engrish right? maybe you could find a suitable synonym, like confederacy or union or federation...
    Kyouwakoku better? The other one was first to this one's second (or not there at all) on the three transliteration programs I use... so do not blame me.

  8. #8
    cpt_acid's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: The historical accuracy of the Hattori clan...

    I know the name Hattori Hanzo from Tarantino's film Kill Bill

    Sonny Chiba plays Hattori Hanzo, an elderly and retired legendary master swordsmith that forges his best masterpiece sword ever for Uma Thurman.

    If it was any other Hollywood director, I'd think he did it by accident.

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