It's hard to explain in a title.

[Irish Warrior]

I'm not sure, but I think I may have come up with a new idea about how we live, now, this is all up for debate and if I'm not the first please correct me but, I have to give it a try, and I'm aware no philosophy is bullet proof, and this one has enough holes in it to warrant a cheese grading, but I'm still going to say it because I believe it has a good basis.

As humans we live our lives and go about our business, we dream, love, hate etc... And we are all certain this exists, but, in a dream, we never quite remember how we got to a place, just that we end up on a train or a plane, and never got onto a plane, just appeared there.

None of us remember our own birth.

Are we dreaming? Are we just asleep in a room somewhere, and our entire lives are just a dream, and our death is when we wake up? I'm not sure, but also I'd like to say another point, when you die in a dream, for example, you jump off a building, you don't die when you hit the ground, you always die a few seconds before. This also happens to people, the shock of iminent death "freezes" them essentially.

That is my argument for us being in a dream, or someone elses.

[Veliky Kaiser Theos]

Possible.

[Ancient Aliens]

Sounds a bit Matrix-esque.

[Irish Warrior]

Sounds a bit Matrix-esque.

I thought the matrix was a load of unspecified brown substance! I only had the brainwave after I watched Inception, and I remembered about the never remembering how we got to somewhere in a dream thing, and then I thought about it more.

[mw2xboxplayer]

I'm not sure, but I think I may have come up with a new idea about how we live, now, this is all up for debate and if I'm not the first please correct me but, I have to give it a try, and I'm aware no philosophy is bullet proof, and this one has enough holes in it to warrant a cheese grading, but I'm still going to say it because I believe it has a good basis.

As humans we live our lives and go about our business, we dream, love, hate etc... And we are all certain this exists, but, in a dream, we never quite remember how we got to a place, just that we end up on a train or a plane, and never got onto a plane, just appeared there.

None of us remember our own birth.

Are we dreaming? Are we just asleep in a room somewhere, and our entire lives are just a dream, and our death is when we wake up? I'm not sure, but also I'd like to say another point, when you die in a dream, for example, you jump off a building, you don't die when you hit the ground, you always die a few seconds before. This also happens to people, the shock of iminent death "freezes" them essentially.

That is my argument for us being in a dream, or someone elses.

Did you just finish watching Inception?

I don't think that our minds would be able to tell the difference between a physical, real reality from a imaginary dream. Your argument seems to parallel the position made in the Zeus Machine thread, stating that humans are merely a illusional figment.

Although, if we were all in someone else's dream; how would you explain the billion years of history that have transpired on the Earth? Also, the "dream universe" that we would supposedly inhabit is extermly complex; would a dream be able to sustain such detail and complexity without collapsing?

[Irish Warrior]

Did you just finish watching Inception?

I don't think that our minds would be able to tell the difference between a physical, real reality from a imaginary dream. Your argument seems to parallel the position made in the Zeus Machine thread, stating that humans are merely a illusional figment.

Although, if we were all in someone else's dream; how would you explain the billion years of history that have transpired on the Earth? Also, the "dream universe" that we would supposedly inhabit is extermly complex; would a dream be able to sustain such detail and complexity without collapsing?

Okay, this is confusing in my mind so I can't really expect something legible to be put here, it's as if our/the person's mind creates blocks and leaves traces of the older dream frame behind to give some basis to the dream itself, i.e. There are castles today, but no knights. You and I, actually, have no true factual record of say, the battle of Tannenberg, because no dream people are still here to tell us, (Yes the battle of Tannenberg occured but for arguments sake) so the mind only has to keep the last hundred years or so on hand when the events can be directly accessed.

[Ancient Aliens]

Two things.

Firstly, isn't the process of sleeping and dreaming within a dream a bit redundant?

Secondly, we have sleep experts who understand the process of dreaming. Our neural patterns and brain activity changes when we are dreaming. Wouldn't, if we were dreaming that we were dreaming, there not be a change in brain activity at all?

[mw2xboxplayer]

You and I, actually, have no true factual record of say, the battle of Tannenberg, because no dream people are still here to tell us

The universe doesn't need to be in a dream for history to be lost. If historical evidence of an event is destroyed and no record was kept, there would be no way of knowing if the event ever transpired.

so the mind only has to keep the last hundred years or so on hand when the events can be directly accessed.

I was understanding your position well up to this point. I have no idea what you are trying to describe when you say 'keep the last 100 years on hand'. Could you further elaborate on that statement?

Also, the questions brought up by AA are excellent points:

Firstly, isn't the process of sleeping and dreaming within a dream a bit redundant?

Secondly, we have sleep experts who understand the process of dreaming. Our neural patterns and brain activity changes when we are dreaming. Wouldn't, if we were dreaming that we were dreaming, there not be a change in brain activity at all?

[Justice and Mercy]

No, we're not dreaming.

Specifically designating the state of dreaming implies that we experience a state of NOT dreaming.

In other words, "dreaming" has a specific meaning which DOESN'T include our day-to-day lives. We are attempting to designate a different state entirely.

Further, we don't remember our birth because our neural framework (by which I mean the entire process of gathering sensory information, integrating it into a full perception, and then storing perceptual information) simply wasn't very advanced.

Even learning to see requires some effort.

[mw2xboxplayer]

Specifically designating the state of dreaming implies that we experience a state of NOT dreaming.

Why would knowing one is dreaming signify that he/she is not dreaming? I don't see why such a notion would be impossible.

[Kjertesvein]

If you are dreaming now, I'm I real or are you talking to a hand-puppet? :S

~Wille

[Justice and Mercy]

Why would knowing one is dreaming signify that he/she is not dreaming?

Being able to designate dreaming implicitly means the ability to designate the states from which it is different, summed up as: Not dreaming.

I don't see why such a notion would be impossible.

You wouldn't be able to see ANYTHING if you applied such an epistemological nightmare consistently.

The assertion that we're in a dream as we live is simply nonsensical. Since proof is based on rational integration of experience, one cannot prove anything OUTSIDE of experience, and it's more than useless to ask them to do so.

"Knowledge" and "proof" both exist in the context of your mind. That doesn't mean that the universe is subjective by any means, just to be clear.

[mw2xboxplayer]

Being able to designate dreaming implicitly means the ability to designate the states from which it is different, summed up as: Not dreaming.

However, if one did not know the difference between dreaming state and reality: would one be able to tell the difference?

The assertion that we're in a dream as we live is simply nonsensical.

Going back to the above point, if one was kept in a dream-like for their entire life; would they know that their entire world was a figment of their imagination?

[Justice and Mercy]

However, if one did not know the difference between dreaming state and reality: would one be able to tell the difference?

No, and they wouldn't have a term like "dreaming" as a result.

Going back to the above point, if one was kept in a dream-like for their entire life; would they know that their entire world was a figment of their imagination?

Of course not, and that's the problem.

Such a silly topic can't be discussed at all. Discussions take place within the context of people's experiences and how they've integrated them. One cannot discuss something that simply could not have been experienced.

So why do such discussions pop up?

Unforunately, it's worse than just a few philosophy grads smoking weed and nodding their heads at their own creative genius, this kind of nonsense is used to keep REAL discussion of REAL reality from happening. Namely, it's used to avoid conversation of metaphysics and as a result of any serious ethics or politics.

Words become twisted to the point of uselessness. "Proof" becomes something that must be attained by some automatic form of divination. This allows philosophers to say "nothing can really be proven, so we can just assert whatever we want."

[mw2xboxplayer]

No, and they wouldn't have a term like "dreaming" as a result.

Of course not, and that's the problem.

Such a silly topic can't be discussed at all. Discussions take place within the context of people's experiences and how they've integrated them. One cannot discuss something that simply could not have been experienced.

So, your saying that it would be impossible for one to live in in their own "dream-state", because they would be unable to dream due to a lack of interaction with reality.

I can understand that point. However, what if we are figments in the dream of another individual?

All the necessary input for the dream would be present (due to the individual's personal interaction with reality), and we could be manifestations of the individual's imagination.

[Justice and Mercy]

So, your saying that it would be impossible for one to live in in their own "dream-state", because they would be unable to dream due to a lack of interaction with reality.

No. I'm saying that being in a "dream-state" is a very specific state that we've ALREADY identified as something OTHER than day-to-day life, as implied by the fact that we've coined the term "dream" at all.

However, what if we are figments in the dream of another individual?

As stated, I do not engage in such nonsense. It's worse than pointless, it's destructive.

You're asking a "what if" regarding a something outside of our experiences. No discussion of ANY kind can be had.

It's a ploy to destroy reason, perpetrated on mankind for his entire intellectual existence.

"Proof" exists within the context of our experiences, and that's it. That's all it ever can be.

[mw2xboxplayer]

You're asking a "what if" regarding a something outside of our experiences. No discussion of ANY kind can be had.

It's a ploy to destroy reason, perpetrated on mankind for his entire intellectual existence.

"Proof" exists within the context of our experiences, and that's it. That's all it ever can be.

Talking about hypothetical possibilities can be considered "pointless", but you can't deny that it is an excellent conversation piece.

[Dominicvs]

Possible, but that is for everyone to their own to decide. Maybe dreams are another life every night.

[Irish Warrior]

Firstly, isn't the process of sleeping and dreaming within a dream a bit redundant?

Secondly, we have sleep experts who understand the process of dreaming. Our neural patterns and brain activity changes when we are dreaming. Wouldn't, if we were dreaming that we were dreaming, there not be a change in brain activity at all?

Well, if we are always dreaming, then we would not be able to compare our "awake" and "dreaming" neural patterns, because there would be no "awake" patterns at all, all of our neural patterns are what they are as we are asleep, and there would be, as the mind would need to function on another level, (which, for the human brain, is not very hard) so neural patterns would change when we sleep so that the impression of sleep is left.

"Proof" exists within the context of our experiences, and that's it. That's all it ever can be.

Then, can I assume skydiving doesen't exist? World War II never happened? You have to be able to allow others experiences into your own to allow growth as a person, if you didn't, then your life would be, like a dream actually, with only your emotions and memories/experiences populating the world.

There is evidence for both skydiving and World War II, which (I think) are neither in your experiences, so you have to take others experiences/ideas, to expand your own.

[Denny Crane!]

I believe the word for the title you were searching for is solipsism.